I am a Christian--again
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03-11-2012, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2012 10:42 PM by Phaedrus.)
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 06:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  Most atheists are not bad because they refuse to look at the implications of their belief. I never mentioned that in my other ramblings. Yes, atheism is destructive to the human character, but if one compartmentalizes it, that disintegration is mitigated. You can talk all day long about how there is no God, no spirit or soul, that evolution is the highest purpose, but unless you really think about where that would lead if it were true, and then accept it, you're going to preserve your psyche. and that's a good thing. Thumbsup



If your psyche is so fragile that contemplating existence without a celestial daddy figure will make your mind disintegrate and send you on a violent rampage, than what you need isn't religion. You need a psychiatrist.


And we haven't thought about the implications of our beliefs? Go fuck yourself. No really, Egor, take your cock out and find a way to fuck yourself with it. That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard come out of your mouth (ok, fingers). First, that you're stupid enough to think that tens of millions of people have left religion and then never taken it any further and examined their place in society and the meaning of life... You'd have to be a mental midget to believe that. Second, that you think just because you're too weak and pathetic--yes, pathetic--to look into a void without going nuts means that no one else is of stout enough character to do so is a laughable absurdity. Grow a pair, will you? And third, the fact that you think existence without your chosen mythical middle-eastern crazed rabbi means that everything must be void shows that you have the perspective and critical thinking skills of a second grader.


Egor, believe whatever the fuck you want, but please, grow up and stop projecting your own metaphysics based on your weakness of character onto others.



I'm fed up with your bullshit, man.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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03-11-2012, 10:49 PM
RE: I am a Christian--again
Hi Egor! I don't really know you that much but from what I gather from this thread is you were never an atheist in the first place. Once you have logic, it kinda sticks. Did you decide to be religious because you felt like your life has no purpose? Was it the fear from being an atheist that there isn't a loving deity? Or was the fear from the indoctrination as child still present?
I still have this tiny fear in my mind from my indoctrination. I know its never going to go away and I have learnt to accept it.. When I let my mind explore and entertain the idea of a God, I get this weird blur in my mind. Then I don't feel anything. Nothing. Not a revelation or a sudden epiphany. I don't know maybe you didn't want to believe in God, so you explored. You got frustrated with all these alternatives. So you went back.
:/ I don't know... I maybe off scale. But I wish you all the luck and if you start doubting, you know where to come. Smile

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03-11-2012, 11:08 PM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(02-11-2012 09:26 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(02-11-2012 09:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no God. That's not denial, that's logic. And since there is no God, we look for understanding in evidence, reason, and logic.


Of course there's a God, and you wouldn't have reason or logic if there wasn't. If there's no God, there is no such thing as reason or logic--there is only chaos. Dodgy

*Facepalm*

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03-11-2012, 11:11 PM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 10:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 06:36 PM)Egor Wrote:  Most atheists are not bad because they refuse to look at the implications of their belief. I never mentioned that in my other ramblings. Yes, atheism is destructive to the human character, but if one compartmentalizes it, that disintegration is mitigated. You can talk all day long about how there is no God, no spirit or soul, that evolution is the highest purpose, but unless you really think about where that would lead if it were true, and then accept it, you're going to preserve your psyche. and that's a good thing. Thumbsup



If your psyche is so fragile that contemplating existence without a celestial daddy figure will make your mind disintegrate and send you on a violent rampage, than what you need isn't religion. You need a psychiatrist.


And we haven't thought about the implications of our beliefs? Go fuck yourself. No really, Egor, take your cock out and find a way to fuck yourself with it. That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard come out of your mouth (ok, fingers). First, that you're stupid enough to think that tens of millions of people have left religion and then never taken it any further and examined their place in society and the meaning of life... You'd have to be a mental midget to believe that. Second, that you think just because you're too weak and pathetic--yes, pathetic--to look into a void without going nuts means that no one else is of stout enough character to do so is a laughable absurdity. Grow a pair, will you? And third, the fact that you think existence without your chosen mythical middle-eastern crazed rabbi means that everything must be void shows that you have the perspective and critical thinking skills of a second grader.


Egor, believe whatever the fuck you want, but please, grow up and stop projecting your own metaphysics based on your weakness of character onto others.



I'm fed up with your bullshit, man.

This.

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03-11-2012, 11:26 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 01:04 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: I am a Christian--again
Hey Egor, I've been following your journey, but haven't said very much.

I see a different man to the rude, arrogant person you once were, who, as you know, I didn't like.

I'm well aware you may still hate my guts, but I'm prepared to let bygones be bygones, and I hope you are too.

I want to share the last two pages of my book with you...just as food for thought. Here they are.


“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”


(Buddha, ca. 500 BCE)

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use.”



Most Christians I have talked to readily admit they don’t go to church for intellectual stimulation, but for many other reasons — the comforting ritual, the music, the sense of community, because they are lonely, out of social obligation or habit, to be entertained or even to “switch off.” Many admit they have a need to worship someone and gentle Jesus just fits the bill. Some are a little more pragmatic; they believe God might punish them if they don’t attend (Pascal’s wager.) Some are trapped in the so-called “Concorde fallacy” ie. “I can’t give up all I used to believe now, otherwise what I’ve invested so far will be lost.”


Have these people thought hard enough about their beliefs? I suspect not, because the entire foundation of belief, the Bible, is very rarely critically examined in church. This is one reason why most liberal, well-educated, intelligent young people are not finding the abovementioned arguments compelling enough to go to church or believe in God. There have been numerous studies showing that, statistically speaking, average intelligence and religiosity are inversely proportional (http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/iq_relig.htm).


Most people require plausible proof before they believe a proposition. When it comes to religion, however, many Christians claim facts are not required. They choose to have faith in their own intuition or feelings, rather than what is revealed by investigation. They just “know in their hearts” that their God exists, as they have an inner peace or joy when they think of him. This might be their main reason for ignoring the reasoning in this book. Their smug assumptions are ill founded.


There have been many thousands of different religions throughout history, and billions of people have all had compelling feelings about their gods. If Jesus is a god because believers just know in their hearts he is, the same reasoning proves that Mohammed, the founder of Islam, and Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, were divinely inspired prophets. It means a painted wooden idol worshiped in the depths of the African jungle two hundred years ago was an actual god. Today’s Moslems cry out to Allah because they believe that Allah cares for them and can hear them. They may give up their lives for Allah, but does that mean he is listening? No. Does the book of Mormon contain God’s words? No. Was the painted wooden post a god? No, of course not. Was Jesus the savior of the world? Hell no!


Christians claim they have the one true God, so all the other true believers have been mistaken. If any other religion owns the one true god, then everyone else must be mistaken. Logically, this is irrefutable proof that intuitive feelings do not prove God, because everyone’s beliefs are mutually exclusive.


Instead of relying on intuition or our “conscience” to determine what is real or best, we should turn to rational thought, as this is clearly the only reliable way to assess the legitimacy of Christianity.


Yet the true believers claim we should ignore evidence and just believe. If you’re a believer it might be impossible to reason you out of a position you didn't reason your way into. My arguments have been like throwing ping-pong balls at a battleship; the facts just bounce off. You’re getting something out of your belief that has convinced you to take no notice of numerous rational arguments. I accept that you have your own reasons for wanting to believe. Any time you feel honest enough to express those reasons, most of the world will be listening, but only if you can express your arguments rationally.


I encourage everyone else, who I think are those who really respect the merit of rational thought, to put Christianity in its proper perspective. “Christ,” is a fiction, a mythical figure who symbolizes the unquestioning acceptance of what well-oiled institutions instruct the rank and file to believe. He is a corporate logo used to cajole consumers into having faith in a raft of prejudices, beliefs and behaviors, instead of being broad-minded and thinking for themselves. “God” is an easy out, but he takes your freedom and choices away. “God” means you rarely find real answers to your problems.


The overzealous enthusiasm of many evangelical Christians makes constructive discussion of ethical issues exasperating. They ignore the intelligence, integrity, and individualism of people. The world would be a more peaceful place if they would cease trying to convert people.


Atheism is a rational, superior alternative, yet requires effort. It means there is no loud group of believers to rally behind. To discover the details about what makes life meaningful is harder than believing what you have been handed on a plate. It takes much work to make a better world, instead of waiting for God to either bail you out or blast you into oblivion.


I appreciate that for a Christian this is very confronting. Yet it is a cathartic realization worth making! When people work out there's no god, they're not throwing anything away, but reclaiming their own selves back. Any Christians brave enough to let go will no longer be under pressure from people who have an agenda. They will think more clearly, be less opinionated, more accepting of others, and gentler on themselves. They will come to the refreshing realization that they don’t need god, a bible or a priest, because open mindedness, their own common sense and a neighbor’s helping hand are far superior. Doors will open to possibilities. Cognitive dissonance will disappear, self-esteem improve, and they will find more real friends. It is a very satisfactory and self-empowering position in which to place oneself.


Despite my opposition to Christianity, I offer my hand in friendship to nearly all Christians, and hope my writing hasn’t compromised their happiness, but helped them put their beliefs in perspective. There are many liberal Christians, quality people who ignore or deny immoral biblical teachings, who are excellent humanitarians. They have a right to preach their beliefs. Concord among people is not to be found in insisting one knows the truth, but in understanding the viewpoints of others. I look forward to a dialogue with Christians and hope they will keep talking, so people like myself who don’t share their views have the best chance of understanding them.


I will finish by acknowledging the Gnostics, who thought that enlightenment arrives when we understand our own nature, and free ourselves from ignorance. They thought we should be flexible and brave, that if we’ve made mistakes we should acknowledge the fact and move forward. What a great observation. It’s OK to concede we’ve been conned. Wisdom stems from the lessons we learn and the decisions we make thereafter.
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04-11-2012, 12:58 AM
 
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 10:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Can you tell me one thing Jesus is clear about?



The knowledge of God and his Son is eternal life. Blink
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04-11-2012, 01:03 AM
 
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 10:49 PM)tazmin98 Wrote:  Hi Egor! I don't really know you that much but from what I gather from this thread is you were never an atheist in the first place. Once you have logic, it kinda sticks. Did you decide to be religious because you felt like your life has no purpose? Was it the fear from being an atheist that there isn't a loving deity? Or was the fear from the indoctrination as child still present?

All of the above. What does that prove about God? Unsure


I still have this tiny fear in my mind from my indoctrination. I know its never going to go away and I have learnt to accept it.. When I let my mind explore and entertain the idea of a God, I get this weird blur in my mind. Then I don't feel anything. Nothing. Not a revelation or a sudden epiphany. I don't know maybe you didn't want to believe in God, so you explored. You got frustrated with all these alternatives. So you went back.
:/ I don't know... I maybe off scale. But I wish you all the luck and if you start doubting, you know where to come. Smile




Sorry you never developed a head for God. And as for knowing where to come--I'm not going anywhere. Evil_monster
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04-11-2012, 01:11 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(04-11-2012 12:58 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 10:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Can you tell me one thing Jesus is clear about?



The knowledge of God and his Son is eternal life. Blink
Hi Egor, has it ever occurred to you that Jesus (Yeshua) was never a Christian, because he was Jewish? Christianity, which taught that God had a son, was only first talked about by Paul in the 50's, about 2 decades after Jesus was gone. Yeshua never believed God had a family. That was blasphemy, and still is...if you are Jewish. Think about it.
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04-11-2012, 01:14 AM
 
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 11:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey Egor, I've been following your journey, but haven't said very much.

I see a different man to the rude, arrogant person you once were, who, as you know, I didn't like.


I'm well aware you may still hate my guts, but I'm prepared to let bygones be bygones, and I hope you are too.



Now that I'm a new person--again--I'm willing to start over. Hug

...will someone please roll "We've Only Just Begun," by the Carpenters... Weeping

Quote:I want to share the last two pages of my book with you...



Shocking Laughat


Ever feel like a sucker. Anyone? Anyone?


Quote:“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”


(Buddha, ca. 500 BCE)

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use.”



Most Christians I have talked to readily admit they don’t go to church for intellectual stimulation, but for many other reasons — the comforting ritual, the music, the sense of community, because they are lonely, out of social obligation or habit, to be entertained or even to “switch off.” Many admit they have a need to worship someone and gentle Jesus just fits the bill. Some are a little more pragmatic; they believe God might punish them if they don’t attend (Pascal’s wager.) Some are trapped in the so-called “Concorde fallacy” ie. “I can’t give up all I used to believe now, otherwise what I’ve invested so far will be lost.”


Have these people thought hard enough about their beliefs? I suspect not, because the entire foundation of belief, the Bible, is very rarely critically examined in church. This is one reason why most liberal, well-educated, intelligent young people are not finding the abovementioned arguments compelling enough to go to church or believe in God. There have been numerous studies showing that, statistically speaking, average intelligence and religiosity are inversely proportional (http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/iq_relig.htm).


Most people require plausible proof before they believe a proposition. When it comes to religion, however, many Christians claim facts are not required. They choose to have faith in their own intuition or feelings, rather than what is revealed by investigation. They just “know in their hearts” that their God exists, as they have an inner peace or joy when they think of him. This might be their main reason for ignoring the reasoning in this book. Their smug assumptions are ill founded.


There have been many thousands of different religions throughout history, and billions of people have all had compelling feelings about their gods. If Jesus is a god because believers just know in their hearts he is, the same reasoning proves that Mohammed, the founder of Islam, and Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, were divinely inspired prophets. It means a painted wooden idol worshiped in the depths of the African jungle two hundred years ago was an actual god. Today’s Moslems cry out to Allah because they believe that Allah cares for them and can hear them. They may give up their lives for Allah, but does that mean he is listening? No. Does the book of Mormon contain God’s words? No. Was the painted wooden post a god? No, of course not. Was Jesus the savior of the world? Hell no!


Christians claim they have the one true God, so all the other true believers have been mistaken. If any other religion owns the one true god, then everyone else must be mistaken. Logically, this is irrefutable proof that intuitive feelings do not prove God, because everyone’s beliefs are mutually exclusive.


Instead of relying on intuition or our “conscience” to determine what is real or best, we should turn to rational thought, as this is clearly the only reliable way to assess the legitimacy of Christianity.


Yet the true believers claim we should ignore evidence and just believe. If you’re a believer it might be impossible to reason you out of a position you didn't reason your way into. My arguments have been like throwing ping-pong balls at a battleship; the facts just bounce off. You’re getting something out of your belief that has convinced you to take no notice of numerous rational arguments. I accept that you have your own reasons for wanting to believe. Any time you feel honest enough to express those reasons, most of the world will be listening, but only if you can express your arguments rationally.


I encourage everyone else, who I think are those who really respect the merit of rational thought, to put Christianity in its proper perspective. “Christ,” is a fiction, a mythical figure who symbolizes the unquestioning acceptance of what well-oiled institutions instruct the rank and file to believe. He is a corporate logo used to cajole consumers into having faith in a raft of prejudices, beliefs and behaviors, instead of being broad-minded and thinking for themselves. “God” is an easy out, but he takes your freedom and choices away. “God” means you rarely find real answers to your problems.


The overzealous enthusiasm of many evangelical Christians makes constructive discussion of ethical issues exasperating. They ignore the intelligence, integrity, and individualism of people. The world would be a more peaceful place if they would cease trying to convert people.


Atheism is a rational, superior alternative, yet requires effort. It means there is no loud group of believers to rally behind. To discover the details about what makes life meaningful is harder than believing what you have been handed on a plate. It takes much work to make a better world, instead of waiting for God to either bail you out or blast you into oblivion.


I appreciate that for a Christian this is very confronting. Yet it is a cathartic realization worth making! When people work out there's no god, they're not throwing anything away, but reclaiming their own selves back. Any Christians brave enough to let go will no longer be under pressure from people who have an agenda. They will think more clearly, be less opinionated, more accepting of others, and gentler on themselves. They will come to the refreshing realization that they don’t need god, a bible or a priest, because open mindedness, their own common sense and a neighbor’s helping hand are far superior. Doors will open to possibilities. Cognitive dissonance will disappear, self-esteem improve, and they will find more real friends. It is a very satisfactory and self-empowering position in which to place oneself.


Despite my opposition to Christianity, I offer my hand in friendship to nearly all Christians, and hope my writing hasn’t compromised their happiness, but helped them put their beliefs in perspective. There are many liberal Christians, quality people who ignore or deny immoral biblical teachings, who are excellent humanitarians. They have a right to preach their beliefs. Concord among people is not to be found in insisting one knows the truth, but in understanding the viewpoints of others. I look forward to a dialogue with Christians and hope they will keep talking, so people like myself who don’t share their views have the best chance of understanding them.


I will finish by acknowledging the Gnostics, who thought that enlightenment arrives when we understand our own nature, and free ourselves from ignorance. They thought we should be flexible and brave, that if we’ve made mistakes we should acknowledge the fact and move forward. What a great observation. It’s OK to concede we’ve been conned. Wisdom stems from the lessons we learn and the decisions we make thereafter.
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04-11-2012, 01:33 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
I smell a troll. Consider

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