I am a Christian--again
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03-11-2012, 04:28 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 04:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 01:08 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Why do you feel there is existential worthlessness associated with atheism? Why do you feel there is existential worth in something else?

Also, why would it matter either way?

Let's assume someone follows a doctrine, even if it isn't Christianity. There's plenty of ideologies to choose from. Most of them tell you that if you do good things, good things happen to you later, bad things bad, etc.

Let's assume on the opposite "spectrum" there is no doctrine. Life is simply here because your existence is possible. Does it still take away from the life you live?

Did you only feel worth because you felt something gave it that? Or because you gave said thing the power to make you feel that way?

Also, assuming perhaps your existence is only there because it is possible, would adopting a doctrine to cope with that change the facts? Or do the facts dictate what people adopt to cope with them?

I'm not trying to criticize you, simply curious as to why you feel that way. Thus far, through my own observations, most people use religion, regardless of which religion it is, as a coping mechanism most of the time. Or a justification to give themselves purpose. Of course it varies from person to person, but that's a lot of what I see.


If we have no purpose, then there's no reason to live. We can make up a reason, but that's a bit like buying a black belt online instead of earning it. I find a purposeless life disgraceful. I find living just to be alive dishonorable. But I suppose if all I wanted to do was be a gamer, grow obese, jerk off or find a fuck buddy, smoke weed and take xanax three times a day, then a purposeless life might be desireable. At least I would know my worthless, lazy way of living was no worse than any other way of spending a lifetime. Hell (pun intended), I might look forward to disolving after death if I spent a worthless, purposeless life on this planet. Dodgy

Then go kill yourself. It's obvious you have no reason to live, and telling us all this is helping no one. You only believe in this religious crap to give you a purpose, and I think you know it.
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03-11-2012, 04:40 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 03:55 AM)Egor Wrote:  I think I made a lot of false premises there. For instance, if there is a hidden meaning, maybe it matters a great deal that we search for it. Maybe the search is what counts. God and Jesus Christ are mysterious; perhaps the mind required to search for them is exactly the mind we are supposed to evolve into.

I mean, you can't deny that the influence of Jesus Christ has influenced human evolution.
I agree that the search is what counts. But I am looking in different places.

I am not searching for a god. I have no need of one (or many).

I can and do "deny that the influence of Jesus Christ has influenced human evolution"... certainly in the biological sense.

If you mean that the messages in the bible have influenced the development of ideas... there is no denying that.

I see these influences as largely negative and most came from Paul not Jesus.

I have moved on.

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03-11-2012, 04:41 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 03:55 AM)Egor Wrote:  I think I made a lot of false premises there. For instance, if there is a hidden meaning, maybe it matters a great deal that we search for it. Maybe the search is what counts. God and Jesus Christ are mysterious; perhaps the mind required to search for them is exactly the mind we are supposed to evolve into.

I mean, you can't deny that the influence of Jesus Christ has influenced human evolution.
Is your God benevolent? Is Jesus benevolent? Hm?

And yes I can. Watch me.

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03-11-2012, 04:45 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 04:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 01:08 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Why do you feel there is existential worthlessness associated with atheism? Why do you feel there is existential worth in something else?

Also, why would it matter either way?

Let's assume someone follows a doctrine, even if it isn't Christianity. There's plenty of ideologies to choose from. Most of them tell you that if you do good things, good things happen to you later, bad things bad, etc.

Let's assume on the opposite "spectrum" there is no doctrine. Life is simply here because your existence is possible. Does it still take away from the life you live?

Did you only feel worth because you felt something gave it that? Or because you gave said thing the power to make you feel that way?

Also, assuming perhaps your existence is only there because it is possible, would adopting a doctrine to cope with that change the facts? Or do the facts dictate what people adopt to cope with them?

I'm not trying to criticize you, simply curious as to why you feel that way. Thus far, through my own observations, most people use religion, regardless of which religion it is, as a coping mechanism most of the time. Or a justification to give themselves purpose. Of course it varies from person to person, but that's a lot of what I see.


If we have no purpose, then there's no reason to live. We can make up a reason, but that's a bit like buying a black belt online instead of earning it. I find a purposeless life disgraceful. I find living just to be alive dishonorable. But I suppose if all I wanted to do was be a gamer, grow obese, jerk off or find a fuck buddy, smoke weed and take xanax three times a day, then a purposeless life might be desireable. At least I would know my worthless, lazy way of living was no worse than any other way of spending a lifetime. Hell (pun intended), I might look forward to disolving after death if I spent a worthless, purposeless life on this planet. Dodgy
I guess I'm not understanding what you mean. My main premise was why do you feel it would be worthless with view x instead of view y?

It definitely doesn't answer all the questions I proposed.

How does searching for your own purpose, or finding your own purpose not propose a purpose? if such a thing is important to that person, then it is important to that person. Whether they find a purpose or meaning by searching for one and finding one, regardless of what it is, still doesn't take away from that purpose they find. Would it not?

If a person finds a purpose or meaning in helping other people, does that take away from them helping people, feeling good about it and living a life happy to know they helped other people.... just because they aren't a christian? What is the difference between an atheist who enjoys helping other people and finding purpose and meaning in doing so, as compared to a christian who finds purpose or meaning in helping people?

Do you see kind of what I mean?

I think what you are proposing is that if there is no ultimate answer to your existence, or for you being put here for a reason, that your life would be meaningless.

A person seeking their own purpose in life is not at all like buying a blackbelt online without earning it, because many people spend years finding something to make them happy. To give them purpose or a meaning. Who am I to tell someone they are meaningless simply because what they find meaningful or purposeful different than me?

You propose that half of it is perhaps mystery, what if the answer in the end is only that you find your own purpose, or create your own meaning. How is that any less.... meaningful?

Even if you do only get one chance, and let's say there is no supernatural cause or creation causing you to be here... you've enjoyed your life so far, haven't you? You've found meaning with someone you love. You've done things you enjoy. You've found hobbies you find meaningful with value to you. You have done searching on various worldviews and found answers. Who are you to propose that yours is of course, the only logical, rational or philosophical answer to say, the other billions who have pondered the same?

What if your answer is wrong? Does it make your life any less meaningful based off of your experiences, joys, pleasures, various things you have found meaning in? Does it take away from anyone else who feels differently?

Even if at the end of the day... there is no supernatural or special purpose "from above" - let's say from that perspective life in that sense IS "meaningless" - why is finding your own purpose "pointless"? Would you not want to still enjoy it?

You don't have to answer all of those... just my own ponderings talking aloud. In the sense perhaps you find life "meaningless" If there is no supernatural cause, this does not bother me. If facts are facts, reality is reality, and things are near as I can tell, just the way they are, or exist simply because it's possible... it doesn't mean I should suddenly stop enjoying my life.

Just as you knew what it was like to be before you were born, and perhaps the same when you are dead... why would you stop enjoying life before you began searching, if you found the answer and were disappointed by the facts?
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03-11-2012, 04:47 AM
 
RE: I am a Christian--again
Is God benevolent? Jesus thought so. Remember John 3:16?
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03-11-2012, 04:50 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 04:47 AM)Egor Wrote:  Is God benevolent? Jesus thought so. Remember John 3:16?
Do you understand how evolution works?

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03-11-2012, 05:25 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
Fucking Egor with his "my made up purpose is more real than your made up purpose." Where have we heard that argument before?

And all atheism is is having one switch to the off position rather than the on position, in the mind's bank of thousands of switches. Everybody makes up purpose. What you imply is discounted by the evidence; it is far more demonstratable that monotheism produces hate and discontent rather than atheism. one might think "one god" would lead to "one moral philosophy," but Christians and their ilk have a million justifications for their assholery. Yet atheists all seem to lead towards secular humanism. Hmmn... it seems to me that unification of purpose, rather than coming from god, comes from human nature.

And what "teachings of Jesus," there ain't any. It's just a bunch of ideals cobbled together from other moral philosophers. There's no consistency between "love thy neighbor" and "bring them before me, and slay them."

You were much better off with god as fundamental monistic consciousness.

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03-11-2012, 05:26 AM
Re: I am a Christian--again
But I thought God couldn't create the universe and subsequently be inside of it to interact with the world.

How did you settle that one? Realize it was simply made up assertions?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-11-2012, 06:55 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
(03-11-2012 04:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  If we have no purpose, then there's no reason to live. We can make up a reason, but that's a bit like buying a black belt online instead of earning it. I find a purposeless life disgraceful. I find living just to be alive dishonorable. But I suppose if all I wanted to do was be a gamer, grow obese, jerk off or find a fuck buddy, smoke weed and take xanax three times a day, then a purposeless life might be desireable. At least I would know my worthless, lazy way of living was no worse than any other way of spending a lifetime. Hell (pun intended), I might look forward to disolving after death if I spent a worthless, purposeless life on this planet. Dodgy
And by choosing denomination W of religion X, instead of denomination Y of religion Z, you're not making up your own reason? Wink

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03-11-2012, 07:07 AM
RE: I am a Christian--again
Quote:Thanks, Logisch. And I have a different perspective now than I did
before. I don't see a reason to be at war with atheists like I used to. I
don't feel as judgmental. I like the debate, but I really don't know
who's going to hell or who isn't. Even Jesus isn't clear about that. Blink

Not clear on who goes to hell or heaven but clear on what Jesus is clear on???

Quote:Of course there's a God, and you wouldn't have reason or logic if there
wasn't. If there's no God, there is no such thing as reason or
logic--there is only chaos. Dodgy

Circular argument.
Fail.
Try again.

Also you say you can't imagine a universe without God but in this quote you say it's certain that there will be chaos without him. Circular, and hypocritical.

OH, and not backed up by facts...

Quote:I mean, you can't deny that the influence of Jesus Christ has influenced human evolution.

Ahhh sure we can.
You got proof that since the year 8AD or whenever, that the human brain has evolved, as in natural selection, to accommodate Jesus Christ?
Because last time I checked the skulls that differed from ours were some 10's of thousands of years old.
Aka, humans have been evolving for thousands of years prior to Jebus Christ.

Quote:If we have no purpose, then there's no reason to live.

Here's a very much over used cliche' for you Egor.
"It's not about the destination, it's about the journey"
AKA, "purpose" is entirely irrelevant and not even needed.

Quote:We can make up a reason, but that's a bit like buying a black belt online instead of earning it.

It's not about "making up a reason", its about "do I take the left road or do I take the right road".

Quote: I find a purposeless life disgraceful.

Then you have the wrong view of life.
You are so fixated on the destination that you are missing the point, the journey. (sorry to keep the cliche, I know it's cheesy, going but it really does fit in to this very well)

Quote:I find living just to be alive dishonorable.

This doesn't even make sense.

Quote:But I suppose if all I wanted to do was be a gamer, grow obese, jerk off
or find a fuck buddy, smoke weed and take xanax three times a day, then
a purposeless life might be desireable.

Seriously? This is your opinion of atheists?
I don't get it, KC and Bucky post about how you're intelligent and write these books and stuff buut it doesn't reflect in your posts at all. You have a very typical Christian out look on life and a very typical view of those that do not agree with you. That same typical view that lakes rational thinking in exchange for... I dunno, that typical Christian thinking. All atheists know what I'm talking about.


I think overall it's good that you see that your monotonic conscious blah blah shit is shit. BUT you've just replaced one falsehood for another which is all you've been doing this whole time.
It's obvious you have no desire to not believe in God. It's not your fault, it's just the way you think, you're at that point where you're just so indoctrinated that even me saying this now you're no doubt thinking "no I'm not blah blah blah", you're almost beyond "saving" because you just flat out refuse, consciously or sub-consciously, you stop believing.

I think if you are serious about, like truly truly serious about wanting to give atheism a go then you need to look at why you just can't let go of God. Is it fear? Do you fear that if you let go you'll go to hell or whatever (that's the beauty of religion, it has an inbuilt "stay or die" mechanism).

I dunno, I don't even like you. Whatever.

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