I am a Christian
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04-03-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 04:57 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Firstly, let me correct some of your statements. Atheism isn't a belief system. It is a rejection of the god theory on the basis that it has failed to meet its burden of proof. If you believe that god exists, then there is a burden of proof on you to show that he/she/it exists. If you meet that burden of proof, then we will believe. Why would we do otherwise. It would be illogical.

Secondly, Theism isn't a belief in a god based on observation. There is nothing that I am aware of in the universe that implies a creator. Theism is based on belief - not FACT. If you can offer proof of god, let's hear it. we all could do with a laugh. Many have offered proof in the past. None that I am aware of have ever succeeded.

Thirdly, Atheists do not want to spread atheism as far as I know. I can only speak for myself. I want christians to stop spreading christianity to our young. They are impressionable. In doing so, it teaches them to think irrationally and illogically. Why stop at christianity? Why not teach them that Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Leprechauns and fairies at the bottom of the garden exist too? There's no more proof that they exist than there is that god exists.

Fourthly, You claim that we hate god. god doesn't exist. How can anyone hate something that doesn't exist?

Lastly, the bible was written by Man in order to control Man. It is pure, unadulterated evil. There are some passages that are disgusting. How anyone, let alone someone who pretends to be about peace, love, forgiveness and understanding, revere it is beyond me.

I would also point out that many of your bible stories are just that - stories. Many have been discredited many times over. Why do christians continue to teach these stories as fact?

I'll stop there and let you respond.

Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

If the burden of proof had been met, i do wonder would people continue to say it had not been met? If at a time in history people were dancing about and one guy said, "there is a God!" and someone replied "You are wrong!" and he said, "I will prove it. if there is a God then fire will rain down on this rock." then, at that time, there was a meteor that flew out of the sky and the rock was obliterated and burnt up, then the people there said "ok, we take it back" and then if it was recorded in 10 books, 2 of which still exist, the rest discounted, then, we get to today,....
(extremely long run on sentence intentional, lack of breath if spoken this way, almost comical)

thennnn... we would have met the burden of proof, it would be logical to say God is existent. But lets get real, if this was the case, if this was the truth that really happened, you would still be sitting here saying the burden of proof is not met.

however from my point of view, it is met in various forms, that proof is just rejected.

now, the observation that proves God's existence in my opinion is the existence of a logical universe. or more precisely, its our logical existence in a universe that tends to disorder over order.

but, i would like to put all these trivial arguments aside and focus on the meat of the issue.

If I did claim that Atheist hate God, or the idea of God, and yet God doesnt exist, then my point would be exactly that. you cant hate something that doesnt exist, and yet, some do.

however, i don't claim that. i said its a possibility i could guess as to the reason. i don't know that's the case at all. its just maybe something that would explain it.

The bible was written by men about men. of course there is pure evil in it. we are men... its history. I wont justify that God told nations to go to war and wipe out opposing people, but i believe that i might one day be wiped out by an opposing person, and it wont be wrong because i am not innocent. if i die of an infection, by God's hand, it wont be anything more than i deserve really... so i wont pretend God is evil if he does the same to someone else, who may deserve it equally.

When you are done reading about the Greeks, Romans and Dr Richard Carrier, think about reading some science.

If your god created this Universe and we are his pet project, how come he put us in such a dangerous place? The Universe is hardly safe, is it? There's neutron stars and black holes and a whole plethora of other objects such as asteroids that could kill all of us within seconds. Next time you talk to your god - do thank him.

Try reading up on DNA too - the very stuff of life. It's structure lends itself to mutation which can either lead to a benefit or cancer. Next time you talk to your god - do thank him for that too. 'Suffer little children to come unto me'. Seen anyone die of cancer have you?

Aren't you tempted, sometimes, to think that either your god is a complete egotistical, sadistic bastard or that the universe and DNA evolved?

You may not understand how the Universe came to be. Scientists aren't sure - yet (but they will). However, it doesn't mean that 'god did it'.

Before you believe in god based upon whatever passes as proof in your world, consider other options and, when I mean 'consider', I mean 'consider'. Do some reading about alternative explanations. It's what an intelligent person would do. It's what a lot of us did. Many of us were, at one time, theists.

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04-03-2016, 07:29 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 07:32 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 06:33 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  1. You do not choose your beliefs. Your beliefs are a result of the information and ideas in your mind. You are convinced that an idea is true. You cannot decide what you believe.

In the same way that no matter how hard you try, you can no longer believe in Santa Claus or the Toothy Fairy.

I don't think I'm ever going to get presents ever again Weeping
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04-03-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  If this is true, the bible spells this out, saying that man is set against God, and it would make sense that the selfish arrogance in all of us would strike against the idea of God.

This is presupposition and ad hoc reasoning. It's easy to write a book after the fact and make claims about why things are they way they are. Sure, this doesn't mean it's wrong, but compare this to other claims by other religions. They can make claims that at least look true; it doesn't make them true.
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04-03-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:29 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  (continuing)

So, alternatively if there are other reasons, I'd like to know what they are.

Other things i can think of are that people just want to be on a team, want to believe something that is validated by other people. Then there would be a reason to want others to be atheistic.

i suppose in some cases there is a vendetta against Christians, or a theist, having been hurt by someone...

Alternately, they think their case is more compelling, and that theistic arguments aren't intellectually honest, and they just want to tell the truth.
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04-03-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:06 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  I am a genuine christian at least.

as for a young earth creationist, i believe that time travels differently in different parts of space, and that gravity effects it.

of course, einstein is where i got this theory from.

so to say the world is young might just mean that it went through a period of hyper fluctuating time, when God created all mater. young or old becomes relative in that light.

then again, science says that matter was at one time highly compressed together, and thats where the universe started from. higher matter compression would be higher gravity. so, would that make time go faster or slower acording to einsteins theories?

But aside from my beliefs about time and its tangibility, darkmatter and its effects on time,

i am a genuine christian. its nice to meet all of you.

Care to respond to me? Consider
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid955573

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-03-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Hmm. Well lets talk about atheism.

Atheism is a belief that there is no God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Theism is a belief that there is a God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Now I understand why Christians would want to share the gospel, as they believe that they have found something positive and necessary for humans to believe, but what is the isolated reason for atheist wanting to spread atheism?

this is in fact my argument: Atheists want others to be atheist because of a variety of reasons. The first reason I see is that they hate God, or the idea of God, because it goes against their instincts, core of who they are, or natural self.

If this is true, the bible spells this out, saying that man is set against God, and it would make sense that the selfish arrogance in all of us would strike against the idea of God.

(breather for comments)

When you are done reading about the gods of the Greeks and Romans and science, then consider this: Before your god, there were many gods such as Zeus, Hermes, Thor, Odin etc. Your god is no more real than they were. Why do you think otherwise?

There are 4,200 (approx.) religions in the world. What makes you think that yours is the correct one and that all the others are fake?

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04-03-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: I am a Christian
Void - I'm hoping you've heard of go-pro cameras. They are small body cams that people use for a variety of reasons, sports mostly.

Imagine if you will that you had a belief that an invisible, intangible, go-pro camera hovered above your head and recorded everything around you for your entire life.

People who lacked this belief would be the atheists in my analogy.

Atheists don't have religious beliefs.
We don't have them.

You don't have a belief in Odin
Neither do we.
You don't have a belief in Zeus.
Neither do we.
You don't have a belief in 997 other gods.
Which makes you 99.9 % atheist.

Your belief in a god is your brain imagining that something is there, when it's really not.

People have the ability to imagine just about anything.
We can imagine that the lottery ticket in our pocket is the big winner. We can tell our friends and family that we struck it rich, that we won. We can make plans for the day when all that money comes rolling in.

We can go celebrate with hundreds of millions of people around the world who also believe that they too have the winning lottery ticket in their pocket.

Atheists do not have the winning lottery ticket delusion.
Atheists ask those people - "Can I see this winning lottery ticket you've been talking about for years ?"

Theists reply -"You have to have faith in order to see it."
Atheist -"You mean, I have to use my imagination, because it's imaginary, as in, not real, not tangible, not visible. Your lifetime of believing that you have a winning lottery ticket makes you feel good, but for me, your belief is just annoying, as well as irrational. "

Can you comprehend this analogy ?
Cause it's spot on.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-03-2016, 08:08 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 08:03 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You don't have a belief in Odin
Neither do we.
You don't have a belief in Zeus.
Neither do we.
You don't have a belief in 997 other gods.
Which makes you 99.9 % atheist.

... and therefore only 0.1% christian.Laughat

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04-03-2016, 08:16 AM
RE: I am a Christian
Quote:Atheism is a belief that there is no God
Wrong (like many other theists). Atheism is the rejection of the claim that a (particular) god exists.

Quote:Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system
Atheism does have an opinion on the claim "*insert your favourite deity here* exists", and the answer is "i reject that claim".
Atheism also is not a belief system. It is the single rejection of a single claim. PERIOD
The fact that many/most atheists share other views than just the rejection of the claim "god exists" is unrelated to their atheism per se.

Quote:If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god)
Wrong again. Is not believing in Leprechauns a belief systsm? A-leprechaunism?
You are mixing up things here. Claims are evaluated one by one, not multiple ones at the same time. Facts are, there either is a god or isnt, but facts and evaluation of claims are not the same!
For each (single!) claim, you have two options.
1) acceptence
2) rejection

The (theistic) claim is: God exists!
Atheist: "i reject that claim".

Another claim would be:
There is no god!
You can accept or reject that claim. That does not imply, you do believe in a god. Likewise, the Atheist doenst necessarily believe there is no god.

Quote:but what is the isolated reason for atheist wanting to spread atheism

Most atheists dont want to spread atheism (what would be the point in spreading a-leprechaunism?). Now what do atheists want?

Well, may i speak for some, preferably the group i am part of. You mentioned belief systems earlier. Lets talk about them:
I want my belifes to match the reality around me. I want to believe as many true things as possible, and as few wrong things as possible. What is the "tool" to achieve this? Critical, sceptical, rational thinking and the scientific method to apply these. That is what historically has an unmatched and unbroken track record to get rid of fantasies, delusions and all sort of beliefs that dont match with reality, and find out whats true and not.
Atheism is the result of this, and i bet quite a few forum members will agree with me on this one.
What i want to spread is not atheism but rational, sceptical, critical thinking. I want people to think for themselves.

I give you an example:
Quote:And i would like to say that i am not seriously smart. I am not even relatively smart
These are your own words, and could be mine too. So we both arent the smartest guys around. So i hope you will not be offended by what i am going to say now:

Quote:now, the observation that proves God's existence in my opinion is the existence of a logical universe. or more precisely, its our logical existence in a universe that tends to disorder over order
This seems to me rather the repetition of something you heared favouring your preconceived notions, rather than the result of a critical examination. I would have prefered, you had actually investigated on this "argument from entropy", before coming to a conclusion.
The universe is full of examples where entropy is locally decreased (= order increased, so to speak, there is a difference in definition however). While overall the universe wants to increase entropy, this can be overcome by using energy.
Examples of this rate down from stars, who gain energy from nuclear fusion in order to decrease entropy in their surroundings, down to all life forms on earth who also benefit from this stellar energy (from our sun) in order to keep their lack of entropy up (= stay alive). I dont see where a god is needed...yet.

Quote:If I did claim that Atheist hate God, or the idea of God, and yet God doesnt exist, then my point would be exactly that. you cant hate something that doesnt exist, and yet, some do.
Atheists dont hate god, as we dont hate leprechauns. We hate what is being done in the name of lep...erm god, by humans. Why do we bother about what humans do to other humans? I hope you dont really want to ask that. Yet the answers would be: Lots of us are humanists too. We just care about our fellows. Incredible isnt it? And on top of that: Nobody needs to order us to do so by threatening to throw us into a flaming pit for eternity.

Quote:the word atheism ... comes from a- meaning without theos, or god.
Sorry, but you dont get to just re-define the term "atheism" at will (irrespective of literal translation). At least not for the rest of mankind.


May i ask a final question: What would change your mind about the existance of your/a/any deity?
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04-03-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: I am a Christian
Void and null, ultimately what I get from your posts is a sense of frustration that your christian beliefs are being challenged. I sense the desire in you is one of wishing you could shut us down because basically we are inconveniently spoiling the party for you and your friends. The logic that cannot be breached by word games and religious squirming and banal apologetics must be very frustrating but I'm afraid we are here to stay we must be the hand of protest against the cruelty and human evil of the different religious assertions that we hear all the time. To be a humanist to truly care about ones fellow man without recourse to tricks, magic and poor thinking, control, power and other trappings is surely the most noble of endeavours.
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