I am a Christian
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04-03-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 01:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:34 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Despite not being able to respond to all the comments in this thread, i am reading all of them. i am observing some people who have some desire to share their beliefs, some who are not trying to do anything that achieve a victorious "i stumped that guy" feeling, and some who are people.

i am most interested in the people, the ones who intellect is interesting, but the hearts is more interesting. the ones that actually care about others, are the ones worth listening to. in my opinion.

I am here to either convince someone that christianity is not what they thought hopefully for the better, to learn something about the atheistic viewpoints, or to learn something in general.

" i am observing some people who have some desire to share their beliefs, some who are not trying to do anything that achieve a victorious "i stumped that guy" feeling, and some who are people."

You seem to be forgetting that you are on an atheist site and are trying to assign motivation to people's replies when you have no actual way of determining their motivation at all.

"i am most interested in the people, the ones who intellect is interesting..."

I don't know what this means. How does one define an "interesting intellect" to a person?

"...but the hearts is more interesting."

Don't know what that means either. If you are hoping that appeals to emotion rather than logic are a better way to communicate factual information, you'll find yourself sorely disappointed here (or in discussions with atheists in general more likely).

"I am here to either convince someone that christianity is not what they thought hopefully for the better..."

You're presuming many of us haven't been christians before. You're now in "no true scotsman" territory, or dangerously close.

"...to learn something about the atheistic viewpoints...

Lack of a belief in god/belief no god(s) exist. That is the atheistic viewpoint.




One of the reasons you'll likely find atheists being curt or blunt with their replies, is that we often get tired of the religious presuming to know things about us. Like our motivations, like you have assumed in many cases already. The religious often act as if they have special knowledge about ourselves that even we don't have, which is factually bullshit. There is no way to civilly converse with someone when you have to tell them that they don't know you, don't know the intent or motivation behind what you have posted, and that their interpretation of your words is subject to their own bias more than it is the actual intent of what was written.


Your post is... defensive. why shouldn't it be? I do determine without proof that people have motives, and the motives may not be accurate. You are correct that i may be wrong about some of them. Maybe some i am right.

The appeal to emotion over logic is actually inverse of what you are thinking. Rather i am saying that emotion is appealing to me in those who want to talk, not the other way around.

I have taken the stance that i cannot teach anyone anything who does not wish to learn the subject, even if i were any good at teaching. I have taken your post in stride and assimilated what you have said. Now it is one with the Borg. Or something like that.

Those who have been Christians may have the worst idea about Christians. Being a christian is about listening to logic just as much as any other belief SHOULD be. Its also recognizing when logic fails you simply because you don't have all the facts. I haven't really had it fail me, but arguably there is a point which it will.

in other words, at this I am appealing to you that intellect comes in many forms, by glimpsing a simple but reasonable reply, and i am doing nothing more than that.

I like a scientist, they figure things out for themselves. Its not just what is preached down their throat, from atheists or theists, or anything in between.
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04-03-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 12:50 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 08:03 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Void - I'm hoping you've heard of go-pro cameras. They are small body cams that people use for a variety of reasons, sports mostly.

Imagine if you will that you had a belief that an invisible, intangible, go-pro camera hovered above your head and recorded everything around you for your entire life.

People who lacked this belief would be the atheists in my analogy.

Atheists don't have religious beliefs.
We don't have them.

You don't have a belief in Odin
Neither do we.
You don't have a belief in Zeus.
Neither do we.
You don't have a belief in 997 other gods.
Which makes you 99.9 % atheist.

Your belief in a god is your brain imagining that something is there, when it's really not.

People have the ability to imagine just about anything.
We can imagine that the lottery ticket in our pocket is the big winner. We can tell our friends and family that we struck it rich, that we won. We can make plans for the day when all that money comes rolling in.

We can go celebrate with hundreds of millions of people around the world who also believe that they too have the winning lottery ticket in their pocket.

Atheists do not have the winning lottery ticket delusion.
Atheists ask those people - "Can I see this winning lottery ticket you've been talking about for years ?"

Theists reply -"You have to have faith in order to see it."
Atheist -"You mean, I have to use my imagination, because it's imaginary, as in, not real, not tangible, not visible. Your lifetime of believing that you have a winning lottery ticket makes you feel good, but for me, your belief is just annoying, as well as irrational. "

Can you comprehend this analogy ?
Cause it's spot on.


i make the claim that God is real, thereby creating a belief system that says all the other gods are either false, or just not all powerful. maybe a form of Zeus does exist, maybe its a powerful angel who likes to be worshiped and tended to use lightning, maybe its some other being that we have limited knowledge on. id prefer to think he does not exist for the most part,
but when i become atheistic in that regard, i would claim he does not exist (at least not like the Greeks thought) and i have made a claim that i cant back up. its a belief and a system both.

if i say that i don't know if he exists, then i am agnostic, if i say i do know, then i am atheist. if i say both i don't know and i know he doesn't exist, that makes me a bit crazy. but that's the meaning of combining the words agnostic atheist.

I dont believe in some invisible go-pro, i dont believe in an invisible intangible God. i believe in a God who is fully tangible, and simply resides in what is mostly easily described as an extra dimension. (dimensions are things such as length, width, height, time, weight, gravity, and radioactivity).

i don't go around carrying it like an idiot with a lottery ticket claiming ive won the lottery, i simply believe that there is a God out there or else the men who created the lottery by all evidence of logic, should not exist right now. no, i am not yet asserting my system of belief that led me to this conclusion, and i might eventually. but not now.

the word atheist asserts there is no God, not that one doesnt know if there is a god. i think that many people here are not atheist at all. they are just agnostic. well thats according to the arguments, the reason for arguing makes me think many atheists pretending to be agnostic to win the argument.

By what means are you aware of this God? Are you directly aware of it and if so by what sensory means? If you are not aware of it perceptually and instead infer its existence, what is your starting point? Name your primaries.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-03-2016, 01:56 PM
RE: I am a Christian
Is it me or is he 90% non-sequiturs and word salad?
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04-03-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 01:56 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Is it me or is he 90% non-sequiturs and word salad?

100% bullshit if you ask meLaugh out load
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04-03-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 01:09 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 08:16 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Sorry, but you dont get to just re-define the term "atheism" at will (irrespective of literal translation). At least not for the rest of mankind.


May i ask a final question: What would change your mind about the existence of your/a/any deity?

i don't think I am the one redefining atheism to suit myself, i feel like whoever is arguing from logic and claiming to be be an atheist is attempting to do that, particularly those who are claiming to to be atheists who don't know if there is a God. (who are not atheist at all, but agnostic.) but to say this is not why i wanted to reply to you.


to answer this question let me start, this is a great question.

what would it take? It would take me, personally looking around and seeing a logical explanation that i can comprehend for humans to have gotten to the point we are at. I love to write scripts, and AI is an interesting concept to me. to make a real AI, i would need to created a large amount of code that is capable of processing, storing and modifying information. before i can do that, i would need to come up with subroutines to deal with a lot of garbage information. it can take me hours to fine tune a code to do something as simple as that, it would take me a year to make just that subroutine if i set my mind to doing it well enough to compare to what our dna does.

but then, if i wanted to make the code able to take parts of itself, recombine with another code and then copy its program spreading itself, it would be beyond my ability given 30,000 years of working on it. i guess i could take that number and multiply it by infinity and maybe just maybe i could hope all this code will one day fall into place, but that would be silly.

so what would it take? it would take me seeing a likely explanation, not an unlikely one(such as we haven't got one so infinite time covers it), that humans could have gotten to where we are today. that would be the core of it. however, i have studied enough of biblical prophesy to see some of it come true in recent years. i would need to be convinced that of the proof i have seen for god, all of it was a fluke and my misunderstanding.

hmm what else. i would need to actually like the ideas that replaced it for me to honestly consider the argument, some of this is based in rationality, while a small amount is emotion. i am a largely logical person, but this is still what it would take.

Um, just a bit of advice. If you are going to come on this forum and begin discussing the complexity of human life I sure as hell hope you have read books about evolution by actual accredited scientists because if you haven't you're in for a heap of trouble around these parts.

Also mentioning "biblical prophecy" might get you into some real hot water too. I hope you know a crap load about mistranslations of the Old Testament's ancient Hebrew language, without specific mistranslation the New Testament Jesus story simply doesn't work. I hope you know a lot of stuff.

OK. Continued on.

Popcorn

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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04-03-2016, 02:03 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 01:48 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 01:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  " i am observing some people who have some desire to share their beliefs, some who are not trying to do anything that achieve a victorious "i stumped that guy" feeling, and some who are people."

You seem to be forgetting that you are on an atheist site and are trying to assign motivation to people's replies when you have no actual way of determining their motivation at all.

"i am most interested in the people, the ones who intellect is interesting..."

I don't know what this means. How does one define an "interesting intellect" to a person?

"...but the hearts is more interesting."

Don't know what that means either. If you are hoping that appeals to emotion rather than logic are a better way to communicate factual information, you'll find yourself sorely disappointed here (or in discussions with atheists in general more likely).

"I am here to either convince someone that christianity is not what they thought hopefully for the better..."

You're presuming many of us haven't been christians before. You're now in "no true scotsman" territory, or dangerously close.

"...to learn something about the atheistic viewpoints...

Lack of a belief in god/belief no god(s) exist. That is the atheistic viewpoint.




One of the reasons you'll likely find atheists being curt or blunt with their replies, is that we often get tired of the religious presuming to know things about us. Like our motivations, like you have assumed in many cases already. The religious often act as if they have special knowledge about ourselves that even we don't have, which is factually bullshit. There is no way to civilly converse with someone when you have to tell them that they don't know you, don't know the intent or motivation behind what you have posted, and that their interpretation of your words is subject to their own bias more than it is the actual intent of what was written.


Your post is... defensive. why shouldn't it be? I do determine without proof that people have motives, and the motives may not be accurate. You are correct that i may be wrong about some of them. Maybe some i am right.

The appeal to emotion over logic is actually inverse of what you are thinking. Rather i am saying that emotion is appealing to me in those who want to talk, not the other way around.

I have taken the stance that i cannot teach anyone anything who does not wish to learn the subject, even if i were any good at teaching. I have taken your post in stride and assimilated what you have said. Now it is one with the Borg. Or something like that.

Those who have been Christians may have the worst idea about Christians. Being a christian is about listening to logic just as much as any other belief SHOULD be. Its also recognizing when logic fails you simply because you don't have all the facts. I haven't really had it fail me, but arguably there is a point which it will.

in other words, at this I am appealing to you that intellect comes in many forms, by glimpsing a simple but reasonable reply, and i am doing nothing more than that.

I like a scientist, they figure things out for themselves. Its not just what is preached down their throat, from atheists or theists, or anything in between.

"Your post is... defensive. why shouldn't it be?"

My response and my initial post aren't "defenisve" but they are both explanatory.

"I do determine without proof that people have motives, and the motives may not be accurate."

You don't "determine," you assume based on your bias. That is all one can do, but it is interesting what someone's default assumptions are. For instance, you assume my posts are defensive, based on what exactly?

"You are correct that i may be wrong about some of them. Maybe some i am right."

Maybe this is irrelevant (it is, no maybe about it). You assuming to know motivation and emotion when reading text, has no method for determining your accuracy. Unless you have powers of perception we do not posses? Consider

"The appeal to emotion over logic is actually inverse of what you are thinking. Rather i am saying that emotion is appealing to me in those who want to talk, not the other way around."

You don't and can't know our emotions is what I am saying. Emotion is a non-starter for conversations online. You don't know if I am pissed, or happy, or depressed, or apathetic, or, etc. Engage with what is said, not your assumption about the emotional state of the poster or some unknowable (to you) motivation by the poster.

This is why I specifically ask about your motivation, but not your emotion. 1) your motivation will determine how and why I read what you write. 2) your emotional state is irrelevant. I don't care if you are happy or inquisitive or mad. I am not reading your emotions, I am reading your posts.

"I have taken the stance that i cannot teach anyone anything who does not wish to learn the subject, even if i were any good at teaching."

You're assuming you know more than those you seek to teach. What qualifications do you possess to teach us anything about anything?

Does it seem odd to you that normally, a student seeks out a teacher, but in this case, you presume to be a teacher and are seeking out students. Why is that?

"Those who have been Christians may have the worst idea about Christians."

No true scotsman fallacy

"Being a christian is about listening to logic just as much as any other belief SHOULD be."

No true scotsman fallacy

If you want people to engage you in conversation, avoid basic bullshit like this. You don't know my history as a christian, and you can't know it from the limited interactions you have had with me or anyone else here, but you presume that our experiences may not apply to what you define as a christian.

"Its also recognizing when logic fails you simply because you don't have all the facts."

No idea what that means. But if you are assuming that opinions can only be formed around complete knowledge of the facts, that isn't true (we convict people in court all the time with limited facts and evidence. In science, we arrive at conclusions based on incomplete facts, evidence, and observations all the time. One uses logic as a tool.)

"in other words, at this I am appealing to you that intellect comes in many forms, by glimpsing a simple but reasonable reply, and i am doing nothing more than that."

i think you grossly overestimate the quality of your responses.

Intellect is a measure of intelligence and I don't know of an accurate way to quantify it. But as best as I can tell, there is one measure of intelligence and it is the ability to learn. There might be different ways of expressing knowledge, but that is not the same as intellect.

"I like a scientist, they figure things out for themselves. "

I am a scientist

"Its not just what is preached down their throat, from atheists or theists, or anything in between."

Which is why science isn't a religion or religious.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-03-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 01:56 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Is it me or is he 90% non-sequiturs and word salad?

non-sequiturs implies argument following an argument. im not really arguing to build a strong case, just a meager one. More like provocation of thought actually, more than a case. Word salad is closer to people who use terms they don't understand. i only do this when its necessary to get my point across. (no one should do this. this is a joke)
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04-03-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: I am a Christian
A good reference for you:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-03-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 01:25 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 01:20 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Damn right on all counts you are passive aggressive and no different to many theists you claim don't represent you

just to clarify, i am passive aggressive. It is my nature to be. That being said, i know just enough about things to be human, not a brilliant person that i suppose you wish i were. also, i would like to eliminate my aggressiveness and be passive if that were possible.

No, im just another guy, spending too much time on forums.
You wanna know the difference between you and me and this forum and your beliefs ?I don't want you banned for saying something I don't like and neither does the forum. You already know that but your contemporaries don't share the same view how do you justify their actions ?
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04-03-2016, 02:18 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 12:50 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  i make the claim that God is real, thereby creating a belief system


Glad to see you agree with us.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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