I am a Christian
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05-03-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 10:41 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 10:20 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Thanks to all and especially to you DLJ, if he was at the contemplation phase I feel bad for not giving him more of a chance but as you said I was pretty convinced that he was at the precontemplation phase or at least retreated to it. In future I will try to be more measured in my responses in the hope that something from more experienced members gets passed the god filter, I guess we live and learn.

Adey67

I liked your post. It shows measure and humility. However, I'm fairly sure that VaN was not here to learn about us Atheists. He made far too many statements about our supposed beliefs and asked far too few questions for that to be the case.

Thanks god Big Grin lol, I don't feel so bad now Smile
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05-03-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 10:20 AM)adey67 Wrote:  ...
In future I will try to be more measured in my responses in the hope that something from more experienced members gets passed the god filter, I guess we live and learn.

Go with how you feel.

This place is many things to many people... community / debate chamber / shoulder to laugh or cry on.

If you are pissed off at religion for whatever reason (for me it's The Cafia covering up child rape that makes me want to punch the first ... I digress) and want to do a Banjo at a drive-by theist, no one's going to stop you.

No need to hold back based on anything I say.

I'm just going a bit meta for the sake of analysis.

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05-03-2016, 11:15 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 03:53 AM by adey67.)
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 10:53 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 10:20 AM)adey67 Wrote:  ...
In future I will try to be more measured in my responses in the hope that something from more experienced members gets passed the god filter, I guess we live and learn.

Go with how you feel.

This place is many things to many people... community / debate chamber / shoulder to laugh or cry on.

If you are pissed off at religion for whatever reason (for me it's The Cafia covering up child rape that makes me want to punch the first ... I digress) and want to do a Banjo at a drive-by theist, no one's going to stop you.

No need to hold back based on anything I say.

I'm just going a bit meta for the sake of analysis.

Which is what I need, it helps me not to be a grumpy old atheist like some I know here in england and I also love the learning curve too. Smile
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05-03-2016, 12:20 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 10:45 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 10:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  ...
Interesting post.

A pre-contemplation stage implies a contemplation stage does it not?

Did you get the feeling that he would eventually contemplate conversion to atheism because I certainly didn't.

It seemed as though he visited our jolly forum to confirm his superiority over us 'poor old atheists - the ones without god - the misguided ones - the ones who hate god'.

He claimed that he came to understand. It seemed to me that he'd already made up his mind and came to confirm his incorrect beliefs and inflect them on us.

The issue was though that he started out badly but later, he fell away.Facepalm Redefining atheism and dimensions wasn't the wisest of actions methinks.

He's probably gone away to tell all his friends about those nasty Atheists.

Pity really because by asking questions he'd have achieved much more.

There again, what was he hoping to achieve? To confirm that Atheists are nasty? If so, then QED.

A precontemplation stage does imply that there is contemplation stage ... just that he wasn't in it.

No, I did not get the impression that "he would eventually contemplate conversion to atheism" just that he was ready to ask questions. Evidenced by ... him asking questions.

He certainly did have some unusually unscientific notions. I wonder how those came about?

He had questions. They were ill-formed and insulting but was he aware of that or is this just a result of living in a bubble?

All I'm asking, if your analysis is correct, and I accept that you may well be a better judge of character than I (it's not one of my strengths), is what would be the best approach to move him from precontemplative to contemplative?

This assumes, of course, that that would be a desirable outcome.

Do you think we did a good a job at confirming his opinions about nasty atheists?

Tongue

I'm a member of an 'Atheist' group. A few months ago, we invited a CofE vicar to come and talk to us about christianity.

Things were far more restrained at the meeting.

The outcome from the meeting was no better. The vicar just assumed that they would cause some of us to 'see the light' even though we had refuted their arguments, and much better, about 100,000 times before. Talk about being naive. There was also a rather obvious intellectual gap at the meeting - just as there was with VaN.

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05-03-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: I am a Christian
Mr I am a Christian,
I want you to know that you probably have the sympathy of all of us here. We once, most of us, were afflicted with the same condition. Hope it comes out well for you as it did for us realists.
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05-03-2016, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2016 04:07 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 10:45 AM)DLJ Wrote:  He claimed that he came to understand.

He clearly didn't. In fact he couldn't even "own" his own feelings, and after stating them, dishonestly tried to play both ends against the middle.

"was viewing a particular thread about how a user was banned from christianChat.com, a website i dont care so much for, but i digress"

He wrote it, and placed it in his first line as context, then backed away from his own post. If he felt he was "digressing", then why say that at all ? So #1 he's not even honest with himself.

Quote:"the person in the thread went about pumping his fist for getting banned for attacking the beliefs of another person as if a hero who had accomplished something.

are all atheist such that they would celebrate that they have caused a christian to view them as pushy, insulting and childish? i would hope not. where are the rational and worthwhile atheists who actually are worth talking to?

Is an idiotic non-sequitur, flung out as a challenge with no evidence

Quote:as a christian who wants to debate, i would only celebrate if one of the parties comes to a deeper understanding, and we mutually learn something worthwhile, or at least one of the parties debating.

No one "comes to deeper understanding' in a debate form. (which is why I will never do them). Conversion and de-conversion are complex processes, and it never happens as a result of "debating". That is why I posed the absurdity of that action for a Christian, in context of their own theology. He did not reply.

Quote:He's probably gone away to tell all his friends about those nasty Atheists.

Too bad. TTA was not set up by Seth as a "be nice to theists" forum.

Quote:He certainly did have some unusually unscientific notions.
No. They were flat out ignorant falsehoods, COMPLETELY lacking in an understanding of what he thought he could use to support his very odd notions.

Quote:He had questions. They were ill-formed and insulting but was he aware of that or is this just a result of living in a bubble?

Who knows. This is not "Therapy for Theists".

Quote:Do you think we did a good a job at confirming his opinions about nasty atheists?

Maybe there should be a "Only talk all nicey-nicey to the theists here, and don't have your idiocy exposed" thread. He preconceived notions were not about to be altered by us. His head is SO far up his ass, it's going to take YEARS to undo the indoctrination he has as a YEC. Sometimes it's hard to hear just how idiotic and wrong some notions are.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-03-2016, 08:25 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 03:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 10:45 AM)DLJ Wrote:  He claimed that he came to understand.

He clearly didn't. In fact he couldn't even "own" his own feelings, and after stating them, dishonestly tried to play both ends against the middle.

"was viewing a particular thread about how a user was banned from christianChat.com, a website i dont care so much for, but i digress"

He wrote it, and placed it in his first line as context, then backed away from his own post. If he felt he was "digressing", then why say that at all ? So #1 he's not even honest with himself.

Quote:"the person in the thread went about pumping his fist for getting banned for attacking the beliefs of another person as if a hero who had accomplished something.

are all atheist such that they would celebrate that they have caused a christian to view them as pushy, insulting and childish? i would hope not. where are the rational and worthwhile atheists who actually are worth talking to?

Is an idiotic non-sequitur, flung out as a challenge with no evidence

Quote:as a christian who wants to debate, i would only celebrate if one of the parties comes to a deeper understanding, and we mutually learn something worthwhile, or at least one of the parties debating.

No one "comes to deeper understanding' in a debate form. (which is why I will never do them). Conversion and de-conversion are complex processes, and it never happens as a result of "debating". That is why I posed the absurdity of that action for a Christian, in context of their own theology. He did not reply.

Quote:He's probably gone away to tell all his friends about those nasty Atheists.

Too bad. TTA was not set up by Seth as a "be nice to theists" forum.

Quote:He certainly did have some unusually unscientific notions.
No. They were flat out ignorant falsehoods, COMPLETELY lacking in an understanding of what he thought he could use to support his very odd notions.

Quote:He had questions. They were ill-formed and insulting but was he aware of that or is this just a result of living in a bubble?

Who knows. This is not "Therapy for Theists".

Quote:Do you think we did a good a job at confirming his opinions about nasty atheists?

Maybe there should be a "Only talk all nicey-nicey to the theists here, and don't have your idiocy exposed" thread. He preconceived notions were not about to be altered by us. His head is SO far up his ass, it's going to take YEARS to undo the indoctrination he has as a YEC. Sometimes it's hard to hear just how idiotic and wrong some notions are.

Ouch! I wish you'd attributed those quotes. Now it looks like I said all of that shit!

(05-03-2016 03:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
This is not "Therapy for Theists".
...

Isn't it? Isn't the first step of therapy the part where the patient realises they have a problem?

I'm not trying to be funny, there ... it's a genuine question. You are the health-care professional, not me, so I bow to your wider experience.

You and I have both posted, on many occasions about how we are often writing for the passing waverer / the doubter / the contemplator, rather than the actual interlocutor. Aren't we, in so doing, reaching out to those who might be hesitatingly about to knock on the door of the therapist's office?

(05-03-2016 03:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
He preconceived notions were not about to be altered by us.
...

*His.

Tongue

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05-03-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 12:53 PM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 08:16 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Wrong again. Is not believing in Leprechauns a belief systsm? A-leprechaunism?
yes, yes it is. its part of a belief system that does not believe in leprechauns.
Atheism is not a belief-system, it is a belief position. Specifically, I don't see any valid reason to believe in any deity, including yours.

This gets to the issue of epistemology. You are using the failed epistemology of faith (belief without a requirement of evidence). I am requiring evidence and/or logical argument as a precondition to belief.
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05-03-2016, 10:44 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2016 11:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 08:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Ouch! I wish you'd attributed those quotes. Now it looks like I said all of that shit!

Sorry. I didn't notice that.

(05-03-2016 03:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This is not "Therapy for Theists".

(05-03-2016 08:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Isn't it? Isn't the first step of therapy the part where the patient realizes they have a problem?

No. It's a community of those who find religions without meaning or value or truth content. It *could* be therapeutic if they already recognize that. I assume it is that, with all the numbers of guests. But that's still a byproduct, IMO.

(05-03-2016 08:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm not trying to be funny, there ... it's a genuine question. You are the health-care professional, not me, so I bow to your wider experience.

I'm not here as a healthcare professional. I HAVE written some long articles, one of which I know is in the top few read by bypassers. That's my "professional'' contribution. I worked many long hours on those things. It's not a therapeutic relationship. They're there, (along with gwg's articles, among others) if they're "seeking".


(05-03-2016 08:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  *His.

Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-03-2016, 05:24 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(05-03-2016 10:20 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 09:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  If you are channeling Sam Harris there, I think it was "ill-concealed" laughter.


Like a child, perhaps?


Like the wrong apps have been uploaded into your necktop? (channeling Dan Dennett, there).

Many here have lived through that experience. Have you not?


OK. Maybe I'm seeing things a little differently having recently started doing some "community service" at a local school (I call it community service because we're in negotiation over how much they can afford to pay me so it's currently pro bono) so when I see "I am a christian", this tells me that they've been a victim of childhood indoctrination.

If they are still in the bubble, their assumptions and their questions will be naive. And I mean "naive" in the sense of 'natural' or 'innocent' rather than 'inept' although I think the latter does apply in this case.

Example:


No surprise that one reaction was:


But what if the wording had been less naive? Like...
"The first reason I see is that they hate God, or [perhaps more accurately] the idea of God..."

Peeb spotted that this was probably what was going on:


Our different reactions / responses no doubt depended on whether we thought he was genuine in the search for deeper understanding as he claimed to be.

Also they probably were influenced by our assessment of the state of doxastic openness and what level of contemplation was portrayed/identified.

From Peter Boghossian's A Manual for Creating Atheists page 85:


What reasons do we have for not taking an individual at their word... our own previous experiences or the evidence as it's presented to us?

I saw this one as somewhere around the Contemplation stage (or perhaps on the verge of it) or else why take the 'probing us' approach rather than the 'all-out preacher' approach. I think that Commonsensei and others in the early pages saw it the same way. Kim mentioned "baby steps" and honestly, I'd never disagree with Kim (I'm way too chicken).

Others, no doubt, saw it as the Precontemplation stage.

If so, what would be the best approach to achieve a desirable outcome.
And what is that desirable outcome? Showing them the door or helping them to the next stage.

For me, e.g. Bucky's advanced questions would be appropriate at the Action stage and true scotsman's line of questions (which are too advanced for me sometimes Blush ) might be more relevant at the Maintenance stage.

To the newer members, please note that I'm not saying any of this as a moderator (it's not in bold purple text), it's just my analysis of what I read.
The more seasoned veterans don't take me seriously anyway.

Opinions welcomed.

All in all, regarding his initial position ... he wasn't banned. This may have surprised him.

If he returns, I hope he gets the chance of having a one-on-one in the fireside chat/boxing ring as many of you chaps and chapesses are living proof that one can indeed be reasoned out of a position that one was not reasoned into.

Wink

Thanks to all and especially to you DLJ, if he was at the contemplation phase I feel bad for not giving him more of a chance but as you said I was pretty convinced that he was at the precontemplation phase or at least retreated to it. In future I will try to be more measured in my responses in the hope that something from more experienced members gets passed the god filter, I guess we live and learn.

Christian VaN man (does that translate?) left me with the impression that he saw us rather in the same way that people see animals at a zoo. He spun around just to see the various kinds of atheists in their cages. He rattled a few bars just to see how the occupants reacted. Of course, just as he anticipated, they snarled. Then, when he was bored, he left.

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