I am a Christian
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04-03-2016, 05:01 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Now I understand why Christians would want to share the gospel, as they believe that they have found something positive and necessary for humans to believe, but what is the isolated reason for atheist wanting to spread atheism?

So you come into my house and complain about the Gwynnies? Laugh out load

Most of the agnostic atheist community is kick-back. There is no "isolated" reasoning - it is a reaction to the ignorant excessives of theism. I.E. creationism.

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04-03-2016, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 05:27 AM by DLJ.)
RE: I am a Christian
First, I'd like to say thank you for returning and also that I admire your spunk (so to speak) and I like your tone. You could do well here.

Pro tip: Try not to take the bait from the more aggressive posters.

When you begin to understand how stifling it can be to be surrounded by what we would consider to be lunacy, you might get a feel for why some can be a little pointed with their language.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Hmm. Well lets talk about atheism.

Atheism is a belief that there is no God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Not necessarily. More often it is simply being dismissive of god-claims.

It's the subtle difference between Not Guilty and Innocent.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Theism is a belief that there is a God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Now I understand why Christians would want to share the gospel, as they believe that they have found something positive and necessary for humans to believe, but what is the isolated reason for atheist wanting to spread atheism?

Not everyone does. Some just want to be left alone.

In my case, I live in a theocratic country. There is no separation between church and state. Having laws passed based on the will of Allah makes no sense to me... good governance is based on process and facts not some spurious revelation that I'm told to believe based on no evidence.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  this is in fact my argument: Atheists want others to be atheist because of a variety of reasons. The first reason I see is that they hate God, or the idea of God, because it goes against their instincts, core of who they are, or natural self.

If this is true, the bible spells this out, saying that man is set against God, and it would make sense that the selfish arrogance in all of us would strike against the idea of God.

(breather for comments)

It does not really make sense to hate something in which you do not believe. For example, I don't hate leprechauns.

But disliking the concept of god? Yes, I can go with that.

(04-03-2016 04:29 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  (continuing)

So, alternatively if there are other reasons, I'd like to know what they are.

Other things i can think of are that people just want to be on a team, want to believe something that is validated by other people. Then there would be a reason to want others to be atheistic.

If I wanted to be part of the team, wouldn't I join the god-team? They have been the winning side up until the invention of the internet.

Does it makes sense to join the team whose opinions can get me stabbed in Bangladesh or beheaded in Pakistan or just arrested in my current home country?

(04-03-2016 04:29 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  i suppose in some cases there is a vendetta against Christians, or a theist, having been hurt by someone...

but none of this really strikes me as a good reason for atheist to be activists about atheism. so, my question to you, sir, is what reason do atheists have to want others to be atheists?

I am critical, but I am also honest, just so you know.

Not a vendetta, although many who come to TTA have been hurt through prejudice or ostracisation.

More likely it's about epistemology.

Faith, Authority, Revelation and Tradition (FART) are just so much hot air when attempting to determine the truth about reality.

Most here have come to the realisation that evidence, logic and reason rule the roost and we are quite frankly bewildered that theists still use those ancient and failed approaches.

There's not much more to it than that.

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04-03-2016, 05:36 AM
RE: I am a Christian
DLJ, I had no idea you lived in an Islamic theocracy. I don't think I could be as brave as you are posting on here and all. I'm guessing you have to take some quite elaborate precautions to stay safe online, it makes me really appreciate the freedoms I have hearing this. Stay safe mate Thumbsup
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04-03-2016, 05:36 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:57 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Hmm. Well lets talk about atheism. ... ... ...
Firstly, let me correct some of your statements. Atheism isn't a belief system. It is a rejection of the god theory on the basis that it has failed to meet its burden of proof. If you believe that god exists, then there is a burden of proof on you to show that he/she/it exists. If you meet that burden of proof, then we will believe. Why would we do otherwise. It would be illogical.

Secondly, Theism isn't a belief in a god based on observation. There is nothing that I am aware of in the universe that implies a creator. Theism is based on belief - not FACT. If you can offer proof of god, let's hear it. we all could do with a laugh. Many have offered proof in the past. None that I am aware of have ever succeeded.

Thirdly, Atheists do not want to spread atheism as far as I know. I can only speak for myself. I want christians to stop spreading christianity to our young. They are impressionable. In doing so, it teaches them to think irrationally and illogically. Why stop at christianity? Why not teach them that Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Leprechauns and fairies at the bottom of the garden exist too? There's no more proof that they exist than there is that god exists.

Fourthly, You claim that we hate god. god doesn't exist. How can anyone hate something that doesn't exist?

Lastly, the bible was written by Man in order to control Man. It is pure, unadulterated evil. There are some passages that are disgusting. How anyone, let alone someone who pretends to be about peace, love, forgiveness and understanding, revere it is beyond me.

I would also point out that many of your bible stories are just that - stories. Many have been discredited many times over. Why do christians continue to teach these stories as fact?

I'll stop there and let you respond.

Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

If the burden of proof had been met, i do wonder would people continue to say it had not been met? If at a time in history people were dancing about and one guy said, "there is a God!" and someone replied "You are wrong!" and he said, "I will prove it. if there is a God then fire will rain down on this rock." then, at that time, there was a meteor that flew out of the sky and the rock was obliterated and burnt up, then the people there said "ok, we take it back" and then if it was recorded in 10 books, 2 of which still exist, the rest discounted, then, we get to today,....
(extremely long run on sentence intentional, lack of breath if spoken this way, almost comical)

thennnn... we would have met the burden of proof, it would be logical to say God is existent. But lets get real, if this was the case, if this was the truth that really happened, you would still be sitting here saying the burden of proof is not met.

however from my point of view, it is met in various forms, that proof is just rejected.

now, the observation that proves God's existence in my opinion is the existence of a logical universe. or more precisely, its our logical existence in a universe that tends to disorder over order.

but, i would like to put all these trivial arguments aside and focus on the meat of the issue.

If I did claim that Atheist hate God, or the idea of God, and yet God doesnt exist, then my point would be exactly that. you cant hate something that doesnt exist, and yet, some do.

however, i don't claim that. i said its a possibility i could guess as to the reason. i don't know that's the case at all. its just maybe something that would explain it.

The bible was written by men about men. of course there is pure evil in it. we are men... its history. I wont justify that God told nations to go to war and wipe out opposing people, but i believe that i might one day be wiped out by an opposing person, and it wont be wrong because i am not innocent. if i die of an infection, by God's hand, it wont be anything more than i deserve really... so i wont pretend God is evil if he does the same to someone else, who may deserve it equally.
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04-03-2016, 05:42 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)adey67 Wrote:  DLJ, I had no idea you lived in an Islamic theocracy. I don't think I could be as brave as you are posting on here and all. I'm guessing you have to take some quite elaborate precautions to stay safe online, it makes me really appreciate the freedoms I have hearing this. Stay safe mate Thumbsup

I used to live in Saudi Arabia. I know what it's like living in a Muslim country.

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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04-03-2016, 05:44 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  First, I'd like to say thank you for returning and also that I admire your spunk (so to speak) and I like your tone. You could do well here.

Pro tip: Try not to take the bait from the more aggressive posters.

When you begin to understand how stifling it can be to be surrounded by what we would consider to be lunacy, you might get a feel for why some can be a little pointed with their language.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Hmm. Well lets talk about atheism.

Atheism is a belief that there is no God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Not necessarily. More often it is simply being dismissive of god-claims.

It's the subtle difference between Not Guilty and Innocent.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Theism is a belief that there is a God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Now I understand why Christians would want to share the gospel, as they believe that they have found something positive and necessary for humans to believe, but what is the isolated reason for atheist wanting to spread atheism?

Not everyone does. Some just want to be left alone.

In my case, I live in a theocratic country. There is no separation between church and state. Having laws passed based on the will of Allah makes no sense to me... good governance is based on process and facts not some spurious revelation that I'm told to believe based on no evidence.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  this is in fact my argument: Atheists want others to be atheist because of a variety of reasons. The first reason I see is that they hate God, or the idea of God, because it goes against their instincts, core of who they are, or natural self.

If this is true, the bible spells this out, saying that man is set against God, and it would make sense that the selfish arrogance in all of us would strike against the idea of God.

(breather for comments)

It does not really make sense to hate something in which you do not believe. For example, I don't hate leprechauns.

But disliking the concept of god? Yes, I can go with that.

(04-03-2016 04:29 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  (continuing)

So, alternatively if there are other reasons, I'd like to know what they are.

Other things i can think of are that people just want to be on a team, want to believe something that is validated by other people. Then there would be a reason to want others to be atheistic.

If I wanted to be part of the team, wouldn't I join the god-team? They have been the winning side up until the invention of the internet.

Does it makes sense to join the team whose opinions can get me stabbed in Bangladesh or beheaded in Pakistan or just arrested in my current home country?

(04-03-2016 04:29 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  i suppose in some cases there is a vendetta against Christians, or a theist, having been hurt by someone...

but none of this really strikes me as a good reason for atheist to be activists about atheism. so, my question to you, sir, is what reason do atheists have to want others to be atheists?

I am critical, but I am also honest, just so you know.

Not a vendetta, although many who come to TTA have been hurt through prejudice or ostracisation.

More likely it's about epistemology.

Faith, Authority, Revelation and Tradition (FART) are just so much hot air when attempting to determine the truth about reality.

Most here have come to the realisation that evidence, logic and reason rule the roost and we are quite frankly bewildered that theists still use those ancient and failed approaches.

There's not much more to it than that.

Nice, collected smart reply. It shows temperament.

In your case, my opinion of islamic beliefs are a corrupted form of the jewish bible with false prophets. in my narrow point of view, i completely understand why you would reject the take it on faith believe whatever we tell you.

And i would never do that myself, i dont just take it on faith that God exists. I like to consider the creation of matter, forming from energy to the psychology of man working as if designed by God...

i suppose you answered well because i feel like i am getting a grasp of your perspective. this is the type of argument that feels like someone may learn something.
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04-03-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)adey67 Wrote:  DLJ, I had no idea you lived in an Islamic theocracy. I don't think I could be as brave as you are posting on here and all. I'm guessing you have to take some quite elaborate precautions to stay safe online, it makes me really appreciate the freedoms I have hearing this. Stay safe mate Thumbsup

Thanks.

Perhaps I should clarify. Malaysia is officially Islamic but I think this is a practical Hobbes' Leviathan approach to governance i.e. without separation of church and state, the state controls the religion (unlike other theocracies where the religion controls the state). This actually curbs the most evil excesses. There are some extremist political parties but they are a minority compared to the parties that represent people who are, as I call them, Mocktail Muslims© just like the christian-in-name-only folks in Europe / USA.

I don't take precautions. If the death cults get me I'll become an atheist martyr and get 72 virgins.

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04-03-2016, 05:54 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 06:01 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

This is where you are going to start annoying people. You say atheists believe that there is not a god, atheists tell you no, it's actually an absence of a belief, and you ignore that and continue by saying that atheism is a belief that there is no god.

It suggests that you aren't willing to listen. It's like me saying that all Christians are like Westbro Baptists, you pointing out the different sects in existence and me continuing to state that all Christians are like Westbro Baptists.

In reality there is agnostic atheism, which is what the majority of atheists are, and there's gnostic atheism which is a minority. Agnostic atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of a god. Gnostic atheism is a firm belief that there is definitely no god.

I am one of the latter and am unusual in that regard. But then I believe that to all intents and purposes we can say for sure that there is no god. Most atheists are not like this.

If I said that there was a very unusual insect living under my bed, would you believe me / disbelieve me? Or would you just lack any belief whatsoever until you had further evidence?

The former is binary religious thinking and assumes the world is either in one state or another. The latter is the kind of thinking that you need as a rational, critical thinker or as a scientist. It is possible not to hold in a belief for or against something.
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04-03-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: I am a Christian
better get sleep ill check back another day...

i should make my signature something like...
If (i think) {I AM};
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04-03-2016, 06:04 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:54 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

This is where you are going to start annoying people. You say atheists believe that there is not a god, atheists tell you no, it's actually an absence of a belief, and you ignore that and continue by saying that atheism is a belief that there is no god.

It suggests that you aren't willing to listen. It's like me saying that all Christians are Westbro Baptists, you pointing out the different sects in existence and me continuing to state that all Christians are Westbro Baptists.

In reality there is agnostic atheism, which is what the majority of atheists are, and there's gnostic atheism which is a minority. Agnostic atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of a god. Gnostic atheism is a firm belief that there is definitely no god.

I am one of the latter and am unusual in that regard. But then I believe that to all intents and purposes we can say for sure that there is no god. Most atheists are not like this.

If I said that there was a very unusual insect living under my bed, would you believe me / disbelieve me? Or would you just lack any belief whatsoever until you had further evidence?

The former is binary religious thinking and assumes the world is either in one state or another. The latter is the kind of thinking that you need as a rational, critical thinker or as a scientist. It is possible not to hold in a belief for or against something.

to respond quickly, if i had to answer your final question, i wouldn't create my argument on saying my anti-insect belief isnt, persay saying theres no insect, but that there might not be an insect.

by saying my "anti-insect" stance i have eliminated the path of saying i dont know if there is an insect.

the word atheism ... comes from a- meaning without theos, or god.

You get my point i hope.
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