I am a Christian
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04-03-2016, 06:11 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:48 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't take precautions. If the death cults get me I'll become an atheist martyr and get 72 virgins.

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04-03-2016, 06:11 AM
RE: I am a Christian
Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

Yes, this is slightly annoying as we hear this all the time and it seems to be a version of the assertion that atheism is a belief system on a par with religious belief which is a bit like saying bald is a hair colour or not playing football is a sport. Fancy word games/obfuscation/twisting, will not work here mate its frankly a tragic apologetic.
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04-03-2016, 06:12 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 06:04 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  ...
the word atheism ... comes from a- meaning without theos, or god.
...

Exactly.

The first atheists, given the etymology (not entomology, i.e. insects under the bed) of 'theos' being Greek, were non-believers of the Greek gods i.e. Jews.

The next batch of atheists were the christians who did not believe in the Roman gods.

You, presumably, are an atheist with regards to the Greek and Roman gods too?

Welcome to the club.

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04-03-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 06:11 AM)jabeady Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 05:48 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't take precautions. If the death cults get me I'll become an atheist martyr and get 72 virgins.

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I won't care.

I'll be dead.

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04-03-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

That is a common way of looking at it from the theistic side. It is not the way many atheists look at it. For many of us atheism means not accepting the claim that a god exists. It isn't a matter of no opinion, it is a matter of insufficient evidence. While it may not be possible to prove that there is nothing that could be considered a god, there isn't good reason to believe that there is a god.

If you want to interact with atheists then I suggest you start by understanding how we view ourselves and not tell us what we think. I do not state that there is no god and I do not state that there is. I state that I have found no good reason to believe the claims made by theists so I remain unconvinced.

Sometimes that is called being an agnostic and that's true. I'm an agnostic atheist. The most useful definitions I have found for the terms relate theism/atheism to what you believe and gnostic/agnostic to what you know. If you know there is a god you are a gnostic theist. If you know that there isn't any god then you are a gnostic atheist. Some here do claim the latter; most generally admit that they can not prove that there is no god so they remain agnostic atheists.

Quote:If the burden of proof had been met, i do wonder would people continue to say it had not been met?

Quote:however from my point of view, it is met in various forms, that proof is just rejected.

People often accept poor quality evidence as proof for things. Rejecting bad evidence does not make others wrong.

Quote:now, the observation that proves God's existence in my opinion is the existence of a logical universe. or more precisely, its our logical existence in a universe that tends to disorder over order.

I have no idea what you mean by a "logical universe". The universe, however, is not evidence of how it came to be the way it is. There is a lot we do not know about how our universe formed (if that question even makes sense) but jumping to "must be a god" is a god-of-the-gaps argument or, more formally, an argument from ignorance fallacy. The best we can actually say is that "we don't know". Not know is uncomfortable but it is intellectually honest.

Quote:If I did claim that Atheist hate God, or the idea of God, and yet God doesnt exist, then my point would be exactly that. you cant hate something that doesnt exist, and yet, some do.

I think you'll find that atheists often hate religion and what it does to people. We see it causing parents to disown their children, we see it causing people to give money that they can't afford to lose, we see it causing people to feel worthless because they don't measure up to some arbitrary standard, we see it causing people to pass laws to ostracize and punish people who don't think the same way.

Quote:The bible was written by men about men. of course there is pure evil in it. we are men... its history.

It is fictionalized history. Much of what is there is apparently based on real events but much appears to be pure fiction. It is literature.

Quote: I wont justify that God told nations to go to war and wipe out opposing people, but i believe that i might one day be wiped out by an opposing person, and it wont be wrong because i am not innocent. if i die of an infection, by God's hand, it wont be anything more than i deserve really... so i wont pretend God is evil if he does the same to someone else, who may deserve it equally.

That's pretty much the kind of thing I meant earlier. Religion seems to infuse a sense of worthlessness in people. You start from the premise that you are guilty and that you deserve punishment despite probably not being anything but a generally decent person. I think that may be why so many people find letting go of belief to be liberating and empowering. Religion often has a crippling effect.

Note that none of that means it is not true. It may be true but if you want to convince me that there is a god then I need evidence that specifically points to that conclusion and is not just "what else could it be".

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04-03-2016, 06:14 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 06:20 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 04:57 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Firstly, let me correct some of your statements. Atheism isn't a belief system. It is a rejection of the god theory on the basis that it has failed to meet its burden of proof. If you believe that god exists, then there is a burden of proof on you to show that he/she/it exists. If you meet that burden of proof, then we will believe. Why would we do otherwise. It would be illogical.

Secondly, Theism isn't a belief in a god based on observation. There is nothing that I am aware of in the universe that implies a creator. Theism is based on belief - not FACT. If you can offer proof of god, let's hear it. we all could do with a laugh. Many have offered proof in the past. None that I am aware of have ever succeeded.

Thirdly, Atheists do not want to spread atheism as far as I know. I can only speak for myself. I want christians to stop spreading christianity to our young. They are impressionable. In doing so, it teaches them to think irrationally and illogically. Why stop at christianity? Why not teach them that Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Leprechauns and fairies at the bottom of the garden exist too? There's no more proof that they exist than there is that god exists.

Fourthly, You claim that we hate god. god doesn't exist. How can anyone hate something that doesn't exist?

Lastly, the bible was written by Man in order to control Man. It is pure, unadulterated evil. There are some passages that are disgusting. How anyone, let alone someone who pretends to be about peace, love, forgiveness and understanding, revere it is beyond me.

I would also point out that many of your bible stories are just that - stories. Many have been discredited many times over. Why do christians continue to teach these stories as fact?

I'll stop there and let you respond.

Atheism is a belief that there is not a God. Lack of opinion on the matter would be a non-belief non-system. If you state there is, or you state there isn't, either way its a belief system (that there is or there isn't a god).

If the burden of proof had been met, i do wonder would people continue to say it had not been met? If at a time in history people were dancing about and one guy said, "there is a God!" and someone replied "You are wrong!" and he said, "I will prove it. if there is a God then fire will rain down on this rock." then, at that time, there was a meteor that flew out of the sky and the rock was obliterated and burnt up, then the people there said "ok, we take it back" and then if it was recorded in 10 books, 2 of which still exist, the rest discounted, then, we get to today,....
(extremely long run on sentence intentional, lack of breath if spoken this way, almost comical)

thennnn... we would have met the burden of proof, it would be logical to say God is existent. But lets get real, if this was the case, if this was the truth that really happened, you would still be sitting here saying the burden of proof is not met.

however from my point of view, it is met in various forms, that proof is just rejected.

now, the observation that proves God's existence in my opinion is the existence of a logical universe. or more precisely, its our logical existence in a universe that tends to disorder over order.

but, i would like to put all these trivial arguments aside and focus on the meat of the issue.

If I did claim that Atheist hate God, or the idea of God, and yet God doesnt exist, then my point would be exactly that. you cant hate something that doesnt exist, and yet, some do.

however, i don't claim that. i said its a possibility i could guess as to the reason. i don't know that's the case at all. its just maybe something that would explain it.

The bible was written by men about men. of course there is pure evil in it. we are men... its history. I wont justify that God told nations to go to war and wipe out opposing people, but i believe that i might one day be wiped out by an opposing person, and it wont be wrong because i am not innocent. if i die of an infection, by God's hand, it wont be anything more than i deserve really... so i wont pretend God is evil if he does the same to someone else, who may deserve it equally.

If atheism is a belief system, then the off switch on a TV is a channel. I'll say it one more time. Atheism IS NOT a belief system. It is a response to a claim that god exists.

Atheists are some of the smartest and logical people that I've met. If the burden of proof of god is met, we will believe. It would be illogical to do otherwise.

Thus far, atheists have rejected proof of god because all proof, thus far, has failed. Many christians do not understand what proof actually means. Many have actually quoted the bible as proof (google circular proof). Some have pointed at a tree and stated that god created it (failing to understand evolution and Biology). Wanting to believe and thinking god exists does not constitute proof.

Atheists don't hate god. god doesn't exists. If an atheist hates god, then they are a theist who hates god - not an atheist. Maybe some atheists hate the idea of god. Me? I don't like people teaching something that isn't proved as fact. christianity is a bronze-age fairy story and should be taught on that basis unless proven otherwise. It is illogical to claim that its burden of proof has been met. If it had, we wouldn't be discussing it.

You need to do some serious reading about history. I suggest that you read about the relationship that the Greeks and Romans had with their gods and then think about the relationship that christians have with their god. Because of christianity, Man lost his place in the Universe. Man now bows his head to some make-believe god. Man is now subservient. Ask yourself why this is and who it may benefit.

Does it not say in your bible that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a Man to enter the kingdom of god? Ask yourself then why it is that one of the richest entities on the planet, if not the richest, is the christian church. Ask yourself why and how it accumulated its riches.

Ask yourself why it is that the christian church, which is supposedly based upon peace, love, forgiveness and acceptance had to murder millions who opposed it to gain acceptance.

Suggest that you also read Dr Richard Carrier. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U

It would be interesting for you to do some reading and research into the above before responding.

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04-03-2016, 06:20 AM
RE: I am a Christian
Hello! Nice to see you were not another drive-by.

(04-03-2016 04:06 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  so to say the world is young might just mean that it went through a period of hyper fluctuating time, when God created all mater. young or old becomes relative in that light.

You are essentially adapting science to fit your worldview rather than making your worldview fit the science.

(04-03-2016 04:06 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  then again, science says that matter was at one time highly compressed together, and thats where the universe started from. higher matter compression would be higher gravity. so, would that make time go faster or slower acording to einsteins theories?

Before the Big Bang Singularity, we know nothing. Speculation is only that. After the BBS, nothing we have in science supports a biblical creation event.

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04-03-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 06:04 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  to respond quickly, if i had to answer your final question, i wouldn't create my argument on saying my anti-insect belief isnt, persay saying theres no insect, but that there might not be an insect.

by saying my "anti-insect" stance i have eliminated the path of saying i dont know if there is an insect.

Atheists are guilty of sometimes using the language loosely and saying "there is no god". If you take the time to listen to more than the soundbite you will find that that is just a shorthand for "I don't believe that a god exists". If you are going to continue to argue against a position that people don't hold you won't make much headway.

Quote:the word atheism ... comes from a- meaning without theos, or god.

Exactly. Without a god, not against a god. Theists believe that there is a god involved in their lives. Atheists don't.

Quote:You get my point i hope.

Back at ya

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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04-03-2016, 06:33 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Hmm. Well lets talk about atheism.

Atheism is a belief that there is no God, often based on observation of the known universe.

Theism is a belief that there is a God, often based on observation of the known universe.
You are correct as far as I understand the terms. However, I must point out that Atheism does not entail anything other than that sentence. There are Atheists. There is no Atheism in the same sense that there is christianity.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  Now I understand why Christians would want to share the gospel, as they believe that they have found something positive and necessary for humans to believe, but what is the isolated reason for atheist wanting to spread atheism?

Multiple reasons.

Because of the pain and suffering caused by religion.
Because of the religious pushing their false beliefs on others.
Because of the religious legislation that forces others to conform to theistic beliefs.
Because we don't like to see fellow primates misled and abused.
Because we're tired of the bullshit.

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  this is in fact my argument: Atheists want others to be atheist because of a variety of reasons. The first reason I see is that they hate God, or the idea of God, because it goes against their instincts, core of who they are, or natural self.

1. You do not choose your beliefs. Your beliefs are a result of the information and ideas in your mind. You are convinced that an idea is true. You cannot decide what you believe.

2. How can you hate something that does not exist?

(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  If this is true, the bible spells this out, saying that man is set against God, and it would make sense that the selfish arrogance in all of us would strike against the idea of God.

It's not true. That is yet one more of the many things that the bible gets wrong. Atheists are individuals. Some may be selfish, some arrogant, some both. This is not, however, limited to atheism.

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04-03-2016, 06:57 AM
RE: I am a Christian
(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  If the burden of proof had been met, i do wonder would people continue to say it had not been met?
Different people have different standards of evidence. For example, the Flat Earthers.

(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  If at a time in history people were dancing about and one guy said, "there is a God!" and someone replied "You are wrong!" and he said, "I will prove it. if there is a God then fire will rain down on this rock." then, at that time, there was a meteor that flew out of the sky and the rock was obliterated and burnt up, then the people there said "ok, we take it back" and then if it was recorded in 10 books, 2 of which still exist, the rest discounted, then, we get to today,....
(extremely long run on sentence intentional, lack of breath if spoken this way, almost comical)

thennnn... we would have met the burden of proof, it would be logical to say God is existent.

Then we would say that your burden of proof was absurdly low.
Thunderstorms and lightning gave birth to Thor and storm gods. Does that mean they are real? Please.

(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  But lets get real, if this was the case, if this was the truth that really happened, you would still be sitting here saying the burden of proof is not met.

however from my point of view, it is met in various forms, that proof is just rejected.

That would describe gullibility.

(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  now, the observation that proves God's existence in my opinion is the existence of a logical universe. or more precisely, its our logical existence in a universe that tends to disorder over order.

If the universe is logical and functions on natural laws, then why hypothesize an unnatural source. Why do you need a god?

(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  If I did claim that Atheist hate God, or the idea of God, and yet God doesnt exist, then my point would be exactly that. you cant hate something that doesnt exist, and yet, some do.

however, i don't claim that. i said its a possibility i could guess as to the reason. i don't know that's the case at all. its just maybe something that would explain it.

You did claim it. Don't play word games.

(04-03-2016 05:36 AM)VoidAndNull Wrote:  if i die of an infection, by God's hand, it wont be anything more than i deserve really... so i wont pretend God is evil if he does the same to someone else, who may deserve it equally.

What did they do to deserve it?
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