I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
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19-01-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
(19-01-2012 03:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 03:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 03:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 03:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 02:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Religious beliefs or the lack of religious beliefs should never enter the realm of politics. Religious ideology isn't political, and we need to stop making it political.

Agreed, but it's the religious who make it an issue, and the politicians who pander to it; the right in an obvious and obnoxious manner, the left in an oh-so-PC way.

The right: Jeeezus is our Lord, you atheists aren't real Murricans, Murrica's a Christian nation.

The left: We respect all beliefs and all faith communities. (meaning they don't respect any.)

What we need is a political party with the guts to say religion is not a political matter, that the U.S. is a secular republic - the Constitution says so and the founders said so.

Libertarian is about as close as it gets... as far as a leader goes... Dr Paul is about as close as it gets.

No, Dr. Paul doesn't come close. Do you need some quotes?


Of course, I just can't seem to take Ron Paul seriously. Every time I hear his name, I flash on RuPaul.

I said closest.

Well, sure, like the Andromeda Galaxy is the closest spiral galaxy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2012, 05:11 PM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
That's what I'm talking about!
President and First Lady all in one - that'll save money right there!
   
Werk that vote! Wink

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22-01-2012, 11:46 PM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
I totally agree with your video reply and was also bothered by the guys of the party in the recent Podcast. They kept trying to defend themselves by stating that they're just speaking for the majority consensus, but that to me is precisely the problem.

I'm not an American but I get that atheists are a tiny minority there, and by attempting to marginalize them all into a singular ideological movement is just going to make things worse. Atheists already have to defend ourselves from false assumptions and stereotypes, we don't need other atheists to be doing the exact same thing to us, which is telling us what we believe, rather than asking us as individuals and leaving it at that

"it is a principle innate and co-natural to every man to have an insatiable inclination to the truth, and to seek for it as for hid treasure..."
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23-01-2012, 04:14 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2012 04:25 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
Dude, put the text of your speech on your computer so you look like you are speaking to the camera and not reading it from a notebook.

"Secularism," is an all-inclusive term that includes theists.

No political party is without factions, which is what you, and every other atheist, is referring to when you conclude that atheism is not a political activity. But ultimately, atheism is a political activity - all of atheists issues are social, including fiscal regulation of government.

The primary problem with atheists (leadership), is that they don't take the time to figure out what the factions are, and therefore, conclude that it is infinite and cannot be organized into factions that would make up the 'umbrella' organization.


(19-01-2012 02:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Religious beliefs or the lack of religious beliefs should never enter the realm of politics. Religious ideology isn't political, and we need to stop making it political.

What do you mean religious beliefs are not political??? Don't you understand that religious beliefs are not a once a week hobby, but a 24/7 practice about how to think and live in communion with other people, which is what politics is geared towards - don't you think???

If not, what do you think is the ultimate goal of politics?


(19-01-2012 03:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  What we need is a political party with the guts to say religion is not a political matter, that the U.S. is a secular republic - the Constitution says so and the founders said so.
What we need is the understanding that the federal government is secular, and that the states need to test the social value of religious organizations.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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23-01-2012, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2012 09:33 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
(23-01-2012 04:14 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 03:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  What we need is a political party with the guts to say religion is not a political matter, that the U.S. is a secular republic - the Constitution says so and the founders said so.
What we need is the understanding that the federal government is secular, and that the states need to test the social value of religious organizations.

So, in my first direct encounter with this infamous TTA legend, I find myself in agreement. Not in violent agreement, or even in "We gotta do something about this shit now!" agreement, but agreement nonetheless.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-01-2012, 01:19 AM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
I agree with your objections to the NAP, but I think it is a good thing they exist. Bear with me here. I think that having a party of secular people (I have more than one bone to pick with the name, but I approve of the concept) is a good thing. If we organize and start showing up at *ALL* political meet and greets, even (or especially) those of people we do not agree with politically and start asking questions about their stances on the separation of church and state or how they will represent their secular voters suddenly we will be on the radars of the politicians as a group that is A) organized, B) paying attention, C) voting and D) feels they are not well-represented by other politicians. What does this do for us? It makes us a group of voters to be courted as opposed to being maligned and/or ignored. See the video below for an example of what I'm talking about. I do not agree with the politician in the video in any way, however I would like to point out that he shushed his *actual* voting base when they jeered the Atheist asking questions. More than that he kept the tone of the conversation much more polite than nearly any other American politician when suddenly faced with an Atheist asking awkward questions. I suspect that announcing he was a representative of a political faction made a vast difference in the tone of the conversation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zAQVRekQ...e=youtu.be

"He who will not reason, is a bigot; he who cannot, is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave." ~Sir William Drummond
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27-01-2012, 01:36 AM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
(19-01-2012 01:35 PM)kim Wrote:  To be "dedicated" to a group of people whose only relevant bond is the lack of an overlord is one thing. But to gather all those differently dedicated people into a committed group, as a representative party ... there lies folly.

Well put! I don't believe I could have said this any better... and I say a lot of crap.

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Thanks for getting off my back!"
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27-01-2012, 05:20 AM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
As a non-American who wants to feel included in the conversation:

In Ireland, we have many political parties and an active atheist organisation called Atheist Ireland. The group is not a political party but it is active politically and very concerned with a secular constitution and education, and most of the problems that you have in America in one way or another.
We want to affect change but we do it without becoming a party. In the last general election and presidential election, AI wrote to all the canditates asking their views on secular political issues. The group also published a secular analysis of the manifestos of each political party. This enables us to align ourselves with the party that answered most of our questions positively. Maybe it even forces the candidates to consider our propositions in order to get more votes.

I think that is more realistic than trying to find a common political ground for all atheists. As the political test thread showed us, we're unlikely to agree on enough to form a basis for a political party.

But from what I heard on the podcast, it is an interesting experiment and who knows, it might even go somewhere.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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27-01-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
I agree, Smooshmonster, we probably would be better off with a secular coalition than we are with NAP, but as long as NAP does the same kind of things then I will be glad they are around even if they do not fully represent my own position. Smile

"He who will not reason, is a bigot; he who cannot, is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave." ~Sir William Drummond
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29-01-2012, 02:23 AM
RE: I am a skeptic of the Atheist Party.
I'm still looking into this and forming my opinion.

On the one hand, my atheism alone does not necessarily inform my political leanings, but considering the fact that religion (usually conservative Christian) informs many peoples' politics, there's a chance my lack of belief in a deity and divine guidance do influence my political beliefs.

On the other hand, I personally see value in a more appropriate title, such as the National Secular Party or something of that nature, especially since the NAP states on its website FAQ that you do not have to be an atheist to join or side with the party. Not all atheists are going to have common political beliefs - especially since in general atheism only answers one specific question regarding belief.

On another hand (because yes, at 2am with enough bourbon in me I have 3 hands) I agree with a lot of what they appear to stand for - including promoting the already established (but not very well applied) secularism of the American government, the promotion of "atheism" as a non-negative term, and the investigation, questioning, and accountability of those who are in office or who are seeking office to represent their pluralist constituency, among other things. In short, I'm hopeful that at least these people have their intentions in the right place, and that they may be effective in their endeavors to represent, motivate, and organize and atheist/secular/pluralist/humanist/church state separatist/under-represented section of the American population.

The Non-Prophets recently did an interview with their Head of Outreach (or some such position) that was probably worth listening to if you're interested : http://www.nonprophetsradio.com/audio/ and of course there's the video making the internet rounds about someone from the party (I think the same guy from the Non-Prophets interview) asking some government official or hopeful about how he would represent his atheist voters: http://www.usanap.org/news/joe-walsh.html/ and of course the link to the main website: http://www.usanap.org/.

I am cautiously optimistic that this all has some positive influence along the way. As a former right-wing conservative who's still reformulating his political beliefs (hopefully based more on evidence and rational thought than misconceptions and emotion) it's kind of nice to see this sort of step being taken.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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