I am availible to answer your questions
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10-03-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(10-03-2014 12:00 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 11:56 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Careful. Some of the zealous theists here used to be atheists.
And now they are theists. So your point was...

Apparently their heritage means that they *can* spell? Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-03-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(10-03-2014 12:08 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:00 PM)Impulse Wrote:  And now they are theists. So your point was...

Clearly, his point is religion affects critical thinking: Like whether to use their, they're, or there in a sentence.

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
I'm sorry an atheist turned zealous theist? If you forgot how to think and how to spell, that's nothing to brag about!

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Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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10-03-2014, 12:18 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 12:58 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(08-03-2014 06:07 AM)Miss Meng Wrote:  I have decided to come here to put a few people straight and correct them regarding there faith.

I understand alot of people here have turned there back on our Heavenly Father, are angry or upset with Him but with perhaps some guidance I can turn things around. Rest assured He is willing to forgive as He is a kind and beautiful creator.

I am more than confident we can sort this confusion out in no time.

I am open to questions and will do my best to answer them.

Thank you kindly and God bless you in this life and the next.

~ Miss Meng

Okay. I've got three (related) serious questions.

Let's look at the whole question of whether this whole God thing is true. I'll assume you're talking about some flavor of Abrahamic God, because to the best of my knowledge that's the only one that gets referred to as Heavenly Father and gets linked a lot with the concept of forgiveness. But you really should be more specific. To keep things simple, I will avoid the possibility of other gods existing... It's either your God, or none. (Though, really, that's a preposterous assumption to make. Even if you say "only one", the question remains of WHICH one. Several have been proposed, you know.)

So suppose an agnostic, who was never really a believer or active disbeliever, is looking at the world and considering two scenarios.

Scenario 1: This was created by your God, roughly as your religion says.
Scenario 2: This is simply a natural process with no creating or guiding deity.

That's the setup. Here's the big question:

What reliable method of discerning which of these two methods should the agnostic adopt?

(By reliable, I mean one that is not prone to error, particularly some technique which produces the same results no matter who applies it, and which does not have a history of producing inaccurate results.)

And my two follow-up questions:

Through what means did you come to your own belief? And are those means reliable?

((Reading ahead, it looks like others have asked roughly these same questions. I'll respond to some things said later on.))

EDIT: Also, if you do respond to me, please do not address me as "dear". While I know others might take it as a kindly form of address, and that might be just the spirit in which you mean it, I myself would find it condescending, overly familiar, and dismissive. I'm informing you of this in advance so that you may avoid this.

(08-03-2014 04:22 PM)Miss Meng Wrote:  Because, dear, everyone knows He exists deep down in there heart. I do. You do. We all do. We may turn away from Him, but he is always there. Imagine a cloud covering a sun. It may be cloudy, but on the other side of those clouds, the sun is always shining.

(08-03-2014 04:22 PM)Miss Meng Wrote:  All Atheists I have encountered are angry at Him in some shape or form. No exceptions.

.... uh, how do you know what people know or feel deep down? Did you conduct some sort of survey or polygraph test? If so, what was the study's methodology and the resulting confidence interval? Did you believe the book that said it but which is only believable as authoritative on the subject if one begins by assuming God exists? (If you're using that to argue for believing in God's existence, that's circular reasoning, which is demonstrably unreliable.) Did you just decide that it sounded nice and therefore it was probably true? (Also demonstrably unreliable.) Did some voice or feeling in your head or heart tell you it was true? (Demonstrably unreliable.) Did you examine your own psychology, and then assume that everyone else is the same? (Demonstrably unreliable.) Did another human being tell you this and you're just repeating what they said? If so, what reliable method did THEY use to come by it? For that matter, what reliable method can you even propose that could possibly be used to establish this point, even if it's not what you used yourself?

Because, frankly, none of us are going to accept you as an expert of what's going on in our deep psychology simply on your say-so, especially not when what you're saying about us appears, to every method available to us, to be blatantly false and uninformed. It would be like me trying to convince you that you're left-handed when you're convinced that you're right-handed (or vice-versa if you're convinced that you're left-handed)... except even there, I could probably concoct some sort of scientific test to measure your coordination with your respective hands. You don't even have that much. I mean, how unconvincing can you be? Judging by how little thought you seem to have put into your methodology, it seems you aren't taking this seriously at all. (Which explains why most of the people here aren't taking it seriously either.)

And hey, I can do the same thing. You're just angry at the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Deep down, you know His Noodly Goodness exists.

When some method (such as asserting that holders of the opposing position actually believe your argument, but are simply in denial) can support two contradictory positions (your God versus the FSM) then that method is unreliable, and the results of it do not engender belief. Without some reliable method that we can use to verify your assertions, they are nothing beyond wild, unsupported assertions. Like someone asserting that the moon is made of green cheese and then getting prissy at people who say that no, it isn't. (Except we can send spacecraft to the moon and actually bring back moon rock to check, so it's even sillier than that.)

(08-03-2014 07:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Hmmmm. Consider
  • Overtly, but disingenuously, polite.
  • Refuses to respond to anyone who is rude.
  • Ignores difficult questions.
  • Doesn't actually answer questions.


Remind you of someone? Dodgy

Reminds me of a whole lot of someones. Who do you have in mind?
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10-03-2014, 12:24 PM
I am availible to answer your questions
^ Already banned for sock puppetry.

β€œIt is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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10-03-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(10-03-2014 12:24 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  ^ Already banned for sock puppetry.

Dang it!! Now who will convert me!

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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10-03-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(10-03-2014 12:30 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:24 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  ^ Already banned for sock puppetry.

Dang it!! Now who will convert me!

Oo! Oooo! me! pick me!!!

Meh, I don't have the energy for that, nvm.
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10-03-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(10-03-2014 12:30 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:24 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  ^ Already banned for sock puppetry.

Dang it!! Now who will convert me!




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-03-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
I don't see where Miss Moron was banned.

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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10-03-2014, 02:24 PM
RE: I am availible to answer your questions
(10-03-2014 02:18 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I don't see where Miss Moron was banned.

Doesn't look banned to me.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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