I am holier than thou
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19-09-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
Needs moar Gwynnies!

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19-09-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 09:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  You do realise that I don't believe in repentance, gods or hell, right?
Yes you do! Haven't you been paying attention?Tongue

excubitor,

Being the theist you are, I think it's safe to assume you believe everything that happens serves God's purpose. Genocide, rape, starvation, suffering etc., all ultimately serve God's plan, right? Therefore, if I am an atheist and destined for hell, maybe that's God's purpose for my existence. Maybe I exist to bring meaning to your future bliss in heaven. Can there be any greater purpose than fulfilling God's will? You should be thanking us for taking the hard part of this grand plan while you take the easy way out you lazy asshole....

Evil_monster

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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19-09-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 09:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 09:06 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I have an ITIL foundation V3 certification and the person who trained me conveyed the facts of DIKW and all the other facts about ITIL.

Cool. Who was your trainer? I'm guessing you are English by the way you spell 'colour'. I might know them.

Knowing the syllabus for the foundation course, I have to point out that this falls a long way short of conveying all the facts.
There's always a bigger fish. Halton Arp and Michael Behe discovered this.

(19-09-2013 09:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 09:06 AM)excubitor Wrote:  You however are rejecting the D and the I. You are prohibiting parents and educators providing data/facts/information. You regard the presentation of data/facts/information as being indoctrination. You jump straight to K and in the process make impossible W.

Then you need to read again what I wrote.
Each conversations started with an analysis of the data.

I do not prohibit it, I encourage it. I merely dispute your version of facts. What you put forward as 'facts' about your deity are merely assertions.
I disagree. I present to my students facts. It is your dispute that
I think you can see that, right?
So you are effectively conceding my point. That if the facts are conducive to your opinion then they are admissible as legitimate D and I inputs. But if they contradict your opinions then they must be labelled as assertions. This is the true indoctrination, categorisation facts as assertions or legitimate data depending on your bias.

(19-09-2013 09:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 09:06 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
You absurdly make the assumption that the student/child understands the principle of a spectrum without anyone having taught them.

No, buddy, the child (me) didn't need to have, at that point, any understanding of a spectrum ... merely an observation (data) of a rainbow.
It is a huge leap to observe a rainbow and the blue sky and then infer that it is refraction of light which makes the sky blue.
To suggest that a child in the care of their parent can extrapolate such knowledge is truly absurd, wholly unbelievable.

(19-09-2013 09:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I thought we were doing quite well there, buddy, but you seem to be slipping into ad hominem.

Why set aside the negative connotations of indoctrination i.e. "teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically"? That was how I meant it.
If you want to choose a better word for what the priests did to my girlfriends, fill ya boots, my son.
No pumpkin. We have not being going well for a long time.
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19-09-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 10:16 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
I said I was tempted to say "I doubt it somehow" but sadly I know for a fact that there are dozens if not hundreds of priests who have done despicable things to children and young men, and a whole generation who said "i doubt it somehow" and ignored the issue for many decades.

I have no answer for this except to hang my head in shame with all the body of Christ for the deeds which were done against the innocents.

Credit where it's due for that sentiment.

For the record though, not my gf in this case, but my friend and colleague.
Of my gfs who have had this experience none turned to Islam but rather to some form of disbelief.

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19-09-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 10:49 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
There's always a bigger fish. Halton Arp and Michael Behe discovered this.

Nope. I thought I knew all of the ITIL trainers in the UK. I don't recall seeing either of those chaps at itSMF conferences.

(19-09-2013 10:49 AM)excubitor Wrote:  It is a huge leap to observe a rainbow and the blue sky and then infer that it is refraction of light which makes the sky blue.
To suggest that a child in the care of their parent can extrapolate such knowledge is truly absurd, wholly unbelievable.

Hmmm. I guess you just didn't understand what I wrote.

Perhaps you had to be there.

(19-09-2013 10:49 AM)excubitor Wrote:  No pumpkin. We have not being going well for a long time.

Well it's kinda half a step forward and two steps back with you but at least there were no ad homs this time so ... grateful for small mercies.

btw, are you going for your ITIL Expert? It's a lot easier now that it's all multiple-choice.

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19-09-2013, 11:09 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 10:53 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 10:16 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
I said I was tempted to say "I doubt it somehow" but sadly I know for a fact that there are dozens if not hundreds of priests who have done despicable things to children and young men, and a whole generation who said "i doubt it somehow" and ignored the issue for many decades.

I have no answer for this except to hang my head in shame with all the body of Christ for the deeds which were done against the innocents.

Credit where it's due for that sentiment.

For the record though, not my gf in this case, but my friend and colleague.
Of my gfs who have had this experience none turned to Islam but rather to some form of disbelief.
Thanks but a mistake. Conciliatory statements kill threads. Come on man. Get your dagger out and let's fire up this baby. We gotta keep this thread burbling along with a dash of acrimony and a pinch of disdain.
I am only joking of course. I remember being a protestant and all the intrigues the politics the back stabbing. Wow. What an interesting life it was. Being a Catholic is incredibly boring. All this peace and harmony, people getting along and working together to feed the poor etc. I cry out to the Lord. Please Lord do something, anything.

I have a bit of a confession to make. Peace harmony tranquility and good will amongst men is so incredibly boring. I know this is a problem with me and my motivations and inclinations. I know that the Lord needs to do some serious overhauls on my motivations. What are we? Beauty queens appealing for world peace. I have read the book of Revelation and there is not a whole lot of world peace described there. Pretty interesting exciting stuff which most red blooded males would turn the page for I would have thought.

But what do we do when all evil is vanquished? Pull out re-runs of Pearl Harbour?
Again. All a bit tongue in cheek. It's like our every day lives. We don't like the humdrum of everyday boring life, but the minute it is disrupted by a court action or a fine, or a car break down, or a big fight with a friend, or a sickness in the family, all we can wish for is a return to the boring normal.

I think this is part of the journey of the Christian. There is great joy in tranquility and peace. Apparenty this joy exceeds the joy of whooping the asses of atheists. Hard to believe but I trust in God that this is the case and consider it my personal spiritual journey to realise this truth which I utterly believe.

Anyway that is my version of blogging when I don't have a blog.
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19-09-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 11:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
There is great joy in tranquility and peace. Apparenty this joy exceeds the joy of whooping the asses of atheists.
...

Huh Okay. I will enjoy watching that. Let me know when you plan to start.




And it's 'arses'. Dodgy

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19-09-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
i'd say religion was for the time there was generally accepted to kill. religion "made sense" of it all and kept humanity going. but then it did some not so good things to keep relevant, namely *cough, cough* the inquisition, abolishing scientific research, the crusades, and now it is... how shall i say it... outdated. we have claims that made sense when the night sky was a black screen dotted with holes to light beyond, but are ridiculous now, when the night opens the view to a nearly endless amount of worlds almost similar to ours. i sincerely hope you see what i did there.

with kind regards sir... if you stand rigid, we stand rigid, and we would be best off agreeing to disagree. and hell is illogical as... hell, i guess. the conciousness is directly linked to the brain.
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19-09-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Unfortunately this is typical ignorance borne of decades of lies and false teaching in our schools from the cradle through to university and beyond. Your ignorance of the arguments of Geocentrism is almost complete although at least you know about Tycho Brahe which is unusual. You are rejecting something you know almost nothing about. And that is by design of the "education" system so-called which has indoctrinated you for your entire childhood, youth and beyond.

Fascinating! You do deny observation.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Keplar, when he derived his laws of planterary motion used all of the measurements of his master Tycho Brahe who was a geocentrist. I can assure you that Tycho Brahe was no idiot. The fact is that the relative position of the planets, sun and moon and earth between the geocentric system of Tycho Brahe and of Keplar ARE IDENTICAL.

Kepler.

And yes. I said that. Well, actually what I said was that only for apparent motion is it of no import whether the sun revolves about the Earth or vice versa, so long as the planets orbit the sun; this is due to the mathematical equivalence of the two reference frames. But I used a lot of big words, so you may not have caught that.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The senior educators know this but they willfully teach students to this day only the Ptolemaic system of geocentrism, doing so in a mocking and derisive way. They do not tell the sweet wide-eyed students about Tycho Brahe lest they engender in them justifiable doubt about the conventional teachings.

You are delusional.

I guess you're somehow aware of how the history of science is taught at every school in every nation?

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In the Tycho Brahe system the earth is the centre of the universe, the sun orbits the earth and the planets orbit the sun. This is exactly what we observe and brings to nought everything which you said.

You don't seem to understand how this works.

Presented with two models which are equivalent under direct observation, there is no a priori reason to think either more correct, absent any corroborating data.

The corroborating data in this case being the remainder of the modern scientific corpus. As it happens.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  You, rather uniquely have conceded this point, in direct contradiction to all your useless waffle about angular motions.

Ah, I get it. What you've done there is, you've not understood. This is elementary geometry. We see in a straight line from the Earth's surface to astronomical objects.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  On the one hand you rattle on about angular motions and then in the next breath you concede that mathematically there is no difference between the two systems and that they are merely co-ordinate transformation. etc. So having confounded your own waffly arguments about angular motion you then resort to a pitiful rendition of Newtonian physics.

Look at Venus. You will see it at some position relative to the distant stars. Wait a while. Look at it again. You will see it at some different position relative to the distant stars.

This is called motion. It is what happens when an object moves from one location to another. The planets are those astronomical objects which so move, from the Greek planetes, deriving from 'wanderer'. The planets are distant enough that we cannot tell by simple direct observation whether they are moving towards or away from us. Therefore the only visible motion is their apparent angular motion. I reiterate: this is elementary geometry.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I however am a free thinker. I totally reject this model of the universe which is illogical, that no layman can understand, that clever men can only pretend to understand to garnish the favour of supposedly cleverer and more important men.

"I can't understand it, therefore it isn't true". Look, that excuse didn't work for I and I, it's not going to work for you either.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  However, clear and free thinkers will be forced to concede that there is no evidence that mass attracts mass.

Drop an object. What happens to it?

Does it, perchance... fall? I encourage you to try this for yourself. It's okay, I'll wait.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The whole system of gravity and inertia is only a theory and has inadequate evidence to come even close to being proved.

Gravity and inertia are unrelated properties. You can test this for yourself if you so desire. Do you deny all kinematic and dynamic experiments since the middle ages? I wouldn't have believed it, but apparently you do.

Inertia derives from momentum, and the relation between force and acceleration. Can you disprove Newton's second law? It's okay, I'll wait.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Even if in the unlikely event it was proved it would still not discount the possibility that the net effect of all the motions of all the objects in the entire universe, the net effect of all gravity and all the inertia results in the earth being the centre of the universe.

That is incoherent.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Every other observation indicates that this is the case including the anthropic principle and the measurements of cosmic background radiation which even in the last few years is threatening to totally turn conventional science on its head.

No.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In fact, and if this conversation which I hoped would move to the geocentric thread continues, we will see that the evidence for a geocentric universe is OVERWHELMING, far easier to argue than the six day creation. It is an utter disgrace that creationists sidestep this issue and buy into the frantic lies of cosmology and astronomy.

No.

Gravity is falsifiable. Can you falsify it? All you must do is give an example where masses do not behave according to the predictions of gravitational mechanics. It's okay, I'll wait.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  We are on the verge of a revolution in science. The scientific community have been sweeping the truth of the failure of the acentric model of the universe under the carpet since the Michelson-Morley failure. Yet since then the evidences for a geocentric earth are piling up and in the end will bury the monstrous lies of the cosmologists and astronomers.

Michelson and Morley did their work over a hundred years ago. It has not been falsified. Can you demonstrate an experiment which falsifies their conclusion and suggests an ether? It's okay, I'll wait.

(19-09-2013 08:59 AM)excubitor Wrote:  At that time the house of cards of modern scientific theory will fall in a screaming heap. Like modern day soothsayers the "scientists" will be run out of town. They know this. They fear the mob and no lie is to them too outlandish or too extreme to tell in order to perpetuate their steaming pile of error that they have assembled.

"House of cards", eh?

You are a megalomaniacal cretin so far up his own ass you can't see daylight. You can go on living there, and the rest of us will carry on taking your dead weight ass with us as we continue apace into an ever-more technological future.

Modern scientific theories are of some occasional use. You yourself live by their outputs. If conventional science is wrong, why do you not deny its results?

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19-09-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(19-09-2013 11:06 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 10:49 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
There's always a bigger fish. Halton Arp and Michael Behe discovered this.

Nope. I thought I knew all of the ITIL trainers in the UK. I don't recall seeing either of those chaps at itSMF conferences.

(19-09-2013 10:49 AM)excubitor Wrote:  It is a huge leap to observe a rainbow and the blue sky and then infer that it is refraction of light which makes the sky blue.
To suggest that a child in the care of their parent can extrapolate such knowledge is truly absurd, wholly unbelievable.

Hmmm. I guess you just didn't understand what I wrote.

Perhaps you had to be there.

(19-09-2013 10:49 AM)excubitor Wrote:  No pumpkin. We have not being going well for a long time.

Well it's kinda half a step forward and two steps back with you but at least there were no ad homs this time so ... grateful for small mercies.

btw, are you going for your ITIL Expert? It's a lot easier now that it's all multiple-choice.
Funny man. Wow. You really like to pull out your acronyms to impress. itSMF Wow you got me there. I yield.
Actually, you are not a bad bloke. I'm not so crusty and stale to not enjoy a good stouch now and then (actually that is a bit of a clue of my nationality).
I'm not going for ITIL expert. I spent over $500 myself to get the foundation cert expecting this to be a ticket into a Service Management job. Six months later and $500 poorer I got a job in a field totally unrelated to ITIL. So ITIL to me is the same as what all IT managers instinctively know it to be, a giant wank designed to extract dollars out of a whole range of IT people who think ITIL is going to transform their service delivery. I have seen it happen time after time. The numpties go off to their ITIL course to learn how it should be done and then when they get back to work they do it how they always did it. ITIL is a giant fraud like any other management course. I have over 20 years in IT and I do ITIL instinctively. ITIL is all basic common sense. ITIL is like preaching to the choir. IT experts of experience and talent will nod their head in agreement. Greenhorns will go to the course and then go back to work and act out the abject incompetence that they always practiced regardless of the excellent principles ITIL taught them.

ITIL is like the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. It provides faultless principles on how to manage the IT Service function within an organisation. Whereas the Catechism provides faultless principles on how to live a godly and sinless life. In the end though it amounts to a hill of beans. In the end it is the true heart of the individual who out of love for the organisation/employer/God/Church seeks the interest of the organisation/employer/God/Church who properly and faithfully implements the principles of ITIL/Catechism.

Look man. ITIL is great. Totally support it. Glad you can make a living out of it, I couldn't. But ITIL relies on IT professionals who give a damn. Most don't. The ones who don't become managers. The ones who slog it out with the code putting in an honest days work get ignored and unappreciated.

Trust me bud. I have seen it all. ITIL, Prince, PMBOK. None of it is true. It all boils down to who is the guy who is prepared to put in an honest days effort in for the good of the company, and that guy is the one who is the first out when the contracts expire. Whereas the ones who can assemble a list of wanky certifications and who know how to blab impressively in front of the boss and steal credit off the workers. They are the ones who get ahead.

No doubt you see that I have a chip on my shoulder. You probably think "what is this guys problem" but you are probably a younger man than me, more idealistic. I have moved into the grumpy old man phase, which is actually the true phase. There is nothing new under the sun. All is vanity under the sun as is described in Ecclesiastes. Have you ever read the Bible DLJ? Read Ecclesiastes for me.

Grumpy cynical old men are on the path of truth. They realise that there is no point whatsoever putting any stake or investment into this world. It all turns to dust.
As our Lord said "19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

ITIL and all the trappings of this world is the equivalent of laying up treasures where moth and rust doth corrupt and thieves break in and steal.

However the Catechism teaches us how to lay up eternal treasures as an investment in heaven. Get with the true program DLJ. The program which will certify you for eternal life, where your just efforts will receive a just reward.
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