I am holier than thou
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20-09-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
For the record - I used to be a roman catholic. No longer!
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20-09-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(20-09-2013 08:38 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...

Hey, you're back!

Have you disproved gravity yet?

Dropped any objects lately?

... this is my signature!
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20-09-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
Looks like we need to form a Recovering Ex-Catholics club.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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20-09-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(20-09-2013 08:38 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The church has more authority than the men in the old testament. The fact that you reject this authority is utterly irrelevant.

It IS "utterly" irrelevant to anyone who has not accepted any authority of the RCC. You have not established this, so maybe you better hone up on your debate skills. No one here accepts that authority, so for you to attempt to argue here from it, without first establishing it, just proves your inept argumentation skills.

Try harder.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-09-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
I had no choice in the whole Catholic thing...till I was old enough to think it through and leave it all behind.

X-cubed...looked into it, thought about it, and chose it for himself.

Makes me doubt his decision making skills.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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20-09-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(20-09-2013 09:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So any sex wherein the conception of children is not a goal is not true love, even within your narrow confines of marriage, is what I'm understanding you saying. You take issue with a couple practicing artificial birth control...but if a couple is practicing a natural birth control, thats ok?
Abstinence from sex in marriage to avoid pregnancy is permissible according to the teaching of the Catholic church provided the motivation are not the various expressions of selfish materialism which we see today in the modern world.

(20-09-2013 09:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I'd like to consider this: You are aware how a woman's reproduction systems works, correct? And that there is only a very small window, 2-3 days, in which conception can occur. Therefore, if sex isn't happening during these 3 critical days, conception is not an option...and therefore sex is not an expression of love? So if a couple is using a Rhythm Method, they are actively avoiding conception by abstaining during the fertile periods.
Obviously sex is not an expression of love if there is no sex that is obvious. For the reasons given above, the practice of the Rhythm method and other methods of natural family planning is permissible in the church, however its use should be moderate and if concerned the priest should be consulted to help with the spiritual aspects of why this method is being used.

(20-09-2013 09:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  conception cannot happen before a woman has ovulated, or after the window of ovulation is closed. Which leaves - on an average cycle - 25 days in which conception cannot happen. So, if you are having sex knowing that conception cannot and will not take place....does that mean the couple isn't experiencing God sanctioned sexual love?
As I said. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with abstaining from sex in marriage for various reasons. Much of Christianity deals with the heart. For example, if a couple wanted to avoid children so that they could save up for a deposit on a house and because the church prohibited ABC they simply used NFP instead then that would be wrong. Humanae Vitae, published in 1968 by Pope Paul VI discusses in considerable depth all of these issues, nevertheless there is significant theological debate in the church on the issue. One reason the church struggles with it is because it is an unparalleled issue, never really experienced before in the history of the world. In all the generations previously children were regarded as blessings which would result in the family achieving greater prosperity. In modern times though children are regarded as a drain on the families resources and truly horrible things are done to limit the size of families, so the church has to respond to the dramatic changing societal norms in a gentle and pastoral way whereas the more hard-line conservatives in the church are more inclined to point out various inconsistencies between forbidding ABC and allowing NFP. However this is a really difficult area of morality. That is why we have the Pope, to settle our disagreements so that we can live in unity.

(20-09-2013 09:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  let just say that I disagree with just about EVERYTHING you have said. Marriage is more than a legal binding document. Its a state of mind. Any sex I have is not "illegitimate",

further - you cannot make such sweeping generalizations regarding infertile couples. There are many infertile couples that are happy they cannot conceive. Not everyone wants children!
The purpose of marrying is primarily to have children, grow a family and multiply. You can make up whatever version you think marriage is or should be, or you can have a thousand different types and expressions of marriage, but it is all your opinion. If you want an authoritative ruling on what marriage is, what is an illegitimate marriage, and what is legitimate marriage then you need to consult the church, which has the ultimate authority on such things as faith and morals.
What you say is true. There are men and women who deliberately make themselves infertile so that they cannot have children. This is a great evil.

(20-09-2013 09:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Since the church bases its beliefs on the Bible, how can it have MORE authority than the men in the old testament? Further, you justify the marriage of Issac and Rebecca, and Sarah and Abraham, (these are men of the old testament), but reject the other marriages of men in the old testament. I do not follow your logic there....
Huh? Which marriages have I rejected in the old testament?
Sarah was Abraham's half sister when they married. This would be rejected today since the church and many societies have forbidden such a relationship. However, back then there was no law to forbid this. For some reason God has revealed the law of monogamy rather lately, to the Church. This does not mean that those who practices polygamy before the law was given somehow become sinners. That is absurd.
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20-09-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
You really suck at addressing the actual questions and points raised.

I'll break it down to simple sentences so you can understand. You say that sex without the possibility of children is not true expression of love. I'm saying that 25 days out of a woman's cycle, conception is not possible.

Therefore, are you saying that the majority of sex for married couples, using your absurdly narrow viewpoints, is NOT an expression of love since conception cannot occur.

Further, you just said that church has more authority on dictating what is marriage than the men of the Old Testament when I gave the example of men marrying their rape victims, their concubines, their siblings, etc. but then you use Old Testament men to make a point regarding the legitimacy of their marriage. Ie, women past childbearing age...

You really need to brush up on your debate skills. You aren't very good at addressing the actual topic at hand.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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20-09-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(20-09-2013 04:50 PM)excubitor Wrote:  That is why we have the Pope, to settle our disagreements so that we can live in unity.

Evolution.....dick. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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20-09-2013, 05:16 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
BTW - your church has the authority, with the snap of its fingers, to make a ruling regarding a couple's personal and private decision to have bodily autonomy, you say?

Your church lost that authority to be anyone's moral compass once they purposely delayed investigations into and facilitated the rape of children through the obstruction of justice.

Furthermore - Pope Benedict spread the lie that condoms spread the HIV virus...a complete lie! So when he said that aids is bad, very bad...but not as bad as condoms, he made himself personally responsible for the suffering and death of millions of people.

The church and its leaders have no moral authority until they can demonstrate by example that they know right from wrong.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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20-09-2013, 05:42 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(20-09-2013 05:07 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You really suck at addressing the actual questions and points raised.

I'll break it down to simple sentences so you can understand. You say that sex without the possibility of children is not true expression of love. I'm saying that 25 days out of a woman's cycle, conception is not possible.

Therefore, are you saying that the majority of sex for married couples, using your absurdly narrow viewpoints, is NOT an expression of love since conception cannot occur.
No. I am not saying that the majority of sex for married couples is NOT an expression of love since conception cannot occur. If you can't see how I answered this in my last post then you need to spend a bit more time thinking.

(20-09-2013 05:07 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Further, you just said that church has more authority on dictating what is marriage than the men of the Old Testament when I gave the example of men marrying their rape victims, their concubines, their siblings, etc. but then you use Old Testament men to make a point regarding the legitimacy of their marriage. Ie, women past childbearing age...
 You really need to brush up on your debate skills. You aren't very good at addressing the actual topic at hand.
You really need to work on your logic skills before I would consider working on my debate skills. There is really nothing in this paragraph worthy of further comment.
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