I am holier than thou
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22-09-2013, 01:21 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(21-09-2013 10:32 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 05:34 PM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
You however have ignored every piece of evidence I have presented which shows that the Pope had authority over all the churches.
...

Ohmy All the churches?

Can anyone remind me how many current popes there are?

I seem to recall that it's 5 but in checking, I only unearthed these modern-day ancient relics, Ted, Franky, Bart and Iggy:

Pope Theodore II, Bishop of Alexandria and Patriarch of all Africa.
Francis, Bishop of Rome.
Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch.
Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East.

Maybe I'm confused because there are 5 current Antioch popes.

Ah! Whatever... who cares? None of them are Jewish anymore.

It made more sense when they were still just Jewish.


(21-09-2013 05:34 PM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
There is not a single atheist here on this forum who deserves the title "thinker".
...

Might be right, there. I'll have to think about that one... critically.
Big Grin
There were 12 apostles. Why should it be a surprise to you that there would be more than 1 patriarchate. However there is one patriarch in the West, being the first and preeminent primate of the church and the highest earthly authority on all matters relating to faith, morals. The final point of decision on all difficult issues relating to the governance of the church.
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22-09-2013, 01:35 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2013 01:49 AM by DLJ.)
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 01:17 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I rejoice when moronic brutes begin to think. The angels in heaven rejoice when they repent.

... and Santa brings you presents if you're good.

btw, you promised some arse-kicking.
I'm still looking forward to that.

Patience is a virtue, they say.

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22-09-2013, 01:36 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
Moronic brutes huh ?

I think you're doing a damn fine job of hanging yourself Thumbsup Carry on.
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22-09-2013, 02:00 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 01:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  Moronic brutes huh ?

I think you're doing a damn fine job of hanging yourself Thumbsup Carry on.

Someone who calls themselves morondog should be delighted to be called moronic brute. I am not a petal. I say it as it is. I see clearly as a representation of this web site which specialises in atheism that the people here are very base, crude, insulting.

You pull me up because I made general observations that atheists here on this forum are moronic brutes, but when people say even worse things to me even using the f word, you say nothing.

The apostle Paul said "The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; "

I say to you that the Cretians were your cousins. My testimony is that atheists are generally moronic brutes. This witness is true and I hope you realise that you have been resoundingly rebuked so that you may turn from your sins and repent.
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22-09-2013, 02:02 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(21-09-2013 05:34 PM)excubitor Wrote:  You however have ignored every piece of evidence I have presented which shows that the Pope had authority over all the churches.
The only "evidence" you have cited are papers, written by humans, in which those same humans CLAIM to have authority. Just because they are very old, or because you and your congregation choose to revere these papers is not evidence that they are true. If you could produce external corroborating evidence we might have something to consider. The strength of your belief, which is obviously strong, adds little to dissuade me from the opinion that the early church fathers were ignorant of biology, geology, meteorology, animal husbandry, cosmology, chemistry, and just about any other scientific discipline you can think of. The fact that many of these disciplines were pioneered by members of the RCC is of little relevance. Which bible verse revealed the atomic structure? Which revelation from God informed us about the DNA helix? Where in the bible are we told why certain elements react strongly with others and some are inert? For that matter, where does it tell us what the elements are? There is nothing biblical that describes the electromagnetic spectrum? Even Genesis, which can be twisted to look like the model of the Big Bang Theory (while standing on your head, trying to drink beer and slightly from the side like), does not state that our universe expanded from a hot dense state. It does not describe the mechanics of matter formation, or solar systems, or galaxies in any way that explains the observational data. ALL of these discoveries were made through observation, measurement, and confirmed with experimental results. Unlike your "evidence", these claims can be externally corroborated because the experiments have been published. Anyone can replicate them to expose frauds if they exist. The "evidence" in a "theory" lies not in it's claims, but, in it's data.
The faith of the people who made these discoveries is irrelevant because these discoveries were not acquired through revelation, just as the faith of Muslims is irrelevant to the development of algebra. The mathematical formulas for algebra are nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. It was the study of mathematics that led to this development. The fact that they were Muslim is a historical fact, not a mathematical one. If your clergy had any meaningful "authority", you would have reams of measurable, testable data which could be repeatedly verified by anyone. Repeating your claims over and over doesn't make them true. Believing in them strongly doesn't either. I can believe I'm a millionaire. Until I show the bank my tax return, I'm not getting a million dollar mortgage, no matter how many hand written letters from "God" I present. And one more thing, if I started threatening the bankers for rejecting, hating, disobeying, or insulting God for not accepting "His" letters, I'd only wind up in a jail cell.
In short, things are not true just because a group of human mammals says so. By all means state your claims. Then support them with data, if you have any.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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22-09-2013, 02:16 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2013 02:21 AM by excubitor.)
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 02:02 AM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 05:34 PM)excubitor Wrote:  You however have ignored every piece of evidence I have presented which shows that the Pope had authority over all the churches.
The only "evidence" you have cited are papers, written by humans, in which those same humans CLAIM to have authority. Just because they are very old, or because you and your congregation choose to revere these papers is not evidence that they are true. If you could produce external corroborating evidence we might have something to consider.
If you want evidence that the early church recognised the authority of the Pope then surely documentary evidence written by senior members of the church that clearly demonstrate obedience to the Pope and describe the esteem of the Pope given by the whole church is adequate evidence. Bucky is so deluded that he wants evidence from non-christians to demonstrate how Christians regarded the Pope. Are you in the same soup of iniquity as Bucky is?

(22-09-2013 02:02 AM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  The strength of your belief, which is obviously strong, adds little to dissuade me from the opinion that the early church fathers were ignorant of biology, geology, meteorology, animal husbandry, cosmology, chemistry, and just about any other scientific discipline you can think of. The fact that many of these disciplines were pioneered by members of the RCC is of little relevance. Which bible verse revealed the atomic structure? Which revelation from God informed us about the DNA helix? Where in the bible are we told why certain elements react strongly with others and some are inert? For that matter, where does it tell us what the elements are? There is nothing biblical that describes the electromagnetic spectrum? Even Genesis, which can be twisted to look like the model of the Big Bang Theory (while standing on your head, trying to drink beer and slightly from the side like), does not state that our universe expanded from a hot dense state. It does not describe the mechanics of matter formation, or solar systems, or galaxies in any way that explains the observational data. ALL of these discoveries were made through observation, measurement, and confirmed with experimental results. Unlike your "evidence", these claims can be externally corroborated because the experiments have been published. Anyone can replicate them to expose frauds if they exist. The "evidence" in a "theory" lies not in it's claims, but, in it's data.
I really have no dispute with this except from your claim that ancient Christians were ignorant of the physical sciences.

However you must remember that the early church fathers were preoccupied with spiritual things, not earthly physical things.

One of the purposes of the Bible is to reveal special divine revelation so that we may know things which we cannot discover ourselves through the scientific method. Your mistake is that you value things which can be discovered through the scientific method more than those things which can only be discovered by divine revelation. Worse error still is the notion that all knowledge can be discovered through the use of science. This is an erroneus and is based on a logical fallacy that events can happen in history which are utterly forgotten because all the evidence is lost. This includes the circumstances of the creation of the world. Science makes the false conclusion that there is adequate data remaining from the beginning of the universe to enable us to derive the truth of what happened then from the use of the scientific method.
This is actually a huge failing in the philosophy of science. In fact classical science was always studied in tandem with classical philosophy, because it was correctly understood then that not everything can be learned through science.

So just to repeat. The Bible is there to provide us knowledge that cannot be understood through Science. If the things contained in the scriptures could be learned through science then there would be no need of a scripture.

By the way. Thanks for not calling me an idiot and a fool. Its a refreshing change here.
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22-09-2013, 02:28 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 01:21 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
However there is one patriarch in the West, being the first and preeminent primate of the church and the highest earthly authority on all matters relating to faith, morals. The final point of decision on all difficult issues relating to the governance of the church.

Ah! That's why it has no relevance.

Nowadays we have laws and International Standards based on evidence, facts and best practice processes.

That'll do for me.


Primate Consider evolved monkey. Evolution FTW.

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22-09-2013, 02:51 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2013 03:04 AM by DLJ.)
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 02:00 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 01:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  Moronic brutes huh ?
...

Someone who calls themselves morondog should be delighted to be called moronic brute.
...

He's got you there MD. 1 point for excubitor.

Tongue

(22-09-2013 02:16 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
However you must remember that the early church fathers were preoccupied with spiritual things, not earthly physical things.
...

If only that were true. Then they would have stayed out of people's sex lives and no one would have had to pay tithes... sex and money being filthy physical stuff. Yeuch!

(22-09-2013 02:16 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
So just to repeat. The Bible is there to provide us knowledge that cannot be understood through Science. If the things contained in the scriptures could be learned through science then there would be no need of a scripture.
...

Quite correct. Science can't explain to us why slavery is such a good idea, can it?
Checkmate, science!

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22-09-2013, 03:02 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 02:00 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Someone who calls themselves morondog should be delighted to be called moronic brute. I am not a petal. I say it as it is. I see clearly as a representation of this web site which specialises in atheism that the people here are very base, crude, insulting.
You want a tissue ? All the meanies getting to you ? YOU are a salesman. You're selling snake oil, and ya know, I thought this was basic in snake-oil salesman school, but if you want people to agree with you then kicking off with "you're stupid" doesn't bode well for your future career.

Quote:You pull me up because I made general observations that atheists here on this forum are moronic brutes, but when people say even worse things to me even using the f word, you say nothing.
I don't *care* if you get insulted, you poor innocent baby. Or I might - atheists are unpredictable brutes after all... but you seem surprised? Oh and it's "fuck", f-word is baby talk.

Quote:The apostle Paul said "The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; "

I say to you that the Cretians were your cousins. My testimony is that atheists are generally moronic brutes. This witness is true and I hope you realise that you have been resoundingly rebuked so that you may turn from your sins and repent.
Pretty sure that's Cretans, Mr Not-Moron-Brute. And boy do I feel rebuked. I think I'll go have a cuppa coffee and savour this rebuked feeling Tongue Sorry no sign of repentance yet Big Grin
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22-09-2013, 03:07 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(22-09-2013 02:02 AM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  ...
The "evidence" in a "theory" lies not in it's claims, but, in it's data.
...

(22-09-2013 02:16 AM)excubitor Wrote:  ...
Its a refreshing change here.

Arrrggggghhhh!

[/grammar nazi]

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