I am holier than thou
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23-09-2013, 12:07 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2013 12:10 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: I am holier than thou
Well, I did say "If you are..." but you are right , I did jump to conclusion, I actually misread part of the quote, and that colored the whole sentence in a different light. My bad. Sorry.

In my defense, points I made stand I think , they just don't apply to you.

Quote:It's almost like he's a little... slowminded.

Well, I did chose that username so people would know what to expect of me Unsure
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23-09-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 12:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It is just amazing that humans in 2013, actually live their day to day lives referencing ancient mythological systems, as if they were actually literally true, as though there had been no human progress in 2000 years.

They have fantastic mental fortresses, I suppose, and their gate guards let only those with the mark pass through. If a farmer says "I burned an offering to Gaia so that she would would bless my lands with rain" nobody wouldn't look at him funny. But switch "burned an offering to Gaia" with "prayed to God", and at least half the populace would join in.

Because what's crazy isn't the idea that gods provide us with rain upon request, but that the man is claiming it's Gaia. And we all know Gaia doesn't exist. Rain comes from clouds. Or God. But not your god, because that would be ridiculous, right?

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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23-09-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
Slowminded - I appreciate your apology. It is accepted and I look forward to your participation in any debate.

Your point is absolutely correct, and its an argument regarding absolute morality. ie, sometimes stealing is the moral thing to do, or killing one person to save the lives of many is the moral thing to do. Its an interesting concept. What exactly has to happen in order for an immoral action to be deemed moral? And further, moral to whom? But I think that might be a topic for another thread entirely.


Either way, Welcome to the board, Slowminded!
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23-09-2013, 01:25 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2013 01:41 PM by NoSkyDaddy.)
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Go back through my posts. I am honest and I am true. I started off as mild as a dove, but over time I have come to see what corrupt and degenerate people you are. A true den of wolves. I say it like it is without any kind of sanctimonious religiosity. Christ himself called the pharisees vipers.
You demonstrate my point beautifully. I did not insult you in my post and yet you devolve to derogatory comments. Like an abusive partner, you provoke scorn, then use it as an excuse to escalate your abuse. You clearly came here to pick a fight.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Atheists were unknown much more than 100 years ago in the late 1800's. No people before that time were idiotic to openly claim that there was no god or gods.
To do so was a fast track to getting murdered by a theist. My point stands.


(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Notice that I am not in the "I am a crybaby and need a friend forum in Atheist Thinking". I am in the "Heavy Stuff > Atheism and Theism › Real Life Debates with Theists"
You are not in the "Brash and Abrasive" section either.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  What is the point of having a "Atheism and Theism › Real Life Debates with Theists" forum if there are no Theists in it to debate you. If you feel insecure because you can't handle the "Heavy Stuff" forum the go to the "Personal Issues and Support" forum and find a shoulder to cry on.
Weeping

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The reason I am here is because I want to debate Atheists. Some people like to play golf, others like to watch me. I like to come here and debate Atheists. If you don't like it then just don't come here to this section.
You are here to lecture us, not debate. Your posts demonstrate that clearly enough. You want to convert us. You state it yourself...(more insults)
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I regard you as men in the image of God, horribly corrupt and degenerate it is true, but still capable of being pricked in the heart by my stern words and potentially repenting and coming to the faith.
And...
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I am not here to sing you a lullaby and tuck you into bed at night. I'm here to blast a trumpet of warning into your ear and try to make you WAKE UP and see where your path is taking you, into eternal destruction. If it be that i turn you from your ways and in the end you experience the eternal salvation of the living God by his son Jesus Christ, will you not then love me that i was instrumental as a mediator in the salvation of your soul. In that day you will fall on my neck and embrace me, thanking this gristly old excubitor for his words of glory, light and salvation. What do your mates here offer you. The company of misery guts who have one step in the grave and when the other step is in the grave offer you nothing nothing.
It is clear you have no interest in understanding our objections to religion in general. We have strong moral objections to many religious practices and all human claims of divine authority and you dismiss them out of hand. Any one from any culture can claim to have revelation from divine sources and assert authority over others, and they do. You have not shown that any of your claims are anything but man made. Your worldview has real moral failings. Until you take our objections seriously, you will not convince anyone. As for our future "embrace", I value your humanity now, and would feel obligated to aid in your assistance if you were in need. I do not need threats and promises to compel me to be humane.

Moving on...
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Your priests, ministers and family many of whom sung you lullabies and preached soft words to you did you no good. I may well be the last line of defence for you before you descend into eternal condemnation.
I actually had the good fortune not to have priests and ministers "preying" over me. Love and compassion are virtues I choose to cultivate in spite of religion, not because of religion. You are incapable of determining the value of my family to me. That value is for me to find not you.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Are you conceding that the scriptures are God's word. If so, then why should you let the evil's of men separate you from God's word.
I used "god's word" in your context because it is what you value, not as a concession. You have demonstrated yourself to be intelligent enough to grasp this concept. This is a shallow and petty argument.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I have never tortured anybody. The guilt deserve punishment, however torture is intrinsically wrong because it imposes a punishment upon an individual before their guilt is proven.
This is largely due to the diminished political authority of the modern church. Government functions have been largely secularized and are simply civil functions. Medical, financial, criminal, and other issues are in the hands of civil agencies. Torture still exists, but, is considered repugnant at best by most people regardless of religious beliefs. You, nor I can truly say how we would behave if we had been born in a medieval culture.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  However you should learn your history. The torture techniques which you describe here are not inventions of the Roman Catholic Church. These are the devices of the protestant nations. The protestant reformation unleashed an almost mind boggling period of savagery in the west. Having broken off the restraint and control of the church they debauched themselves with some of the most horrendous tortures and cruelties against men ever devised.
True for some, not for others. Water boarding, the rack, and the knee splitter were regularly used by the Spanish Inquisition lest you forget. Regardless, all were invented by men who believed themselves to be inspired by God, and equally convinced as you, if not more, that they had the blessing of the godhead. This is well known and easily accessible information. You can pretend the RCC is not culpable for it's fair share of the bloodshed, but don't try to peddle it here. The technical divisions between opposing religious torturers and murderers is a distinction without a difference.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The Catholic techniques of torture were no more invasive than the methods of torture at Guantanamo Bay. There were strict rules. Everything which was done was fastidiously recorded. Torture on an individual was never to be repeated. Bones were never to be broken and permanent injury to the tortures was forbidden. In fact these restraints were a necessary compromise to appease the demands for torture imposed by the secular authority. Without this compromise the church secular state would have lost all restraint and would have committed terrible horrors against their opponents, as was clearly witnessed when the protestants threw off that restraint.
There was no secular authority. Church and state were interwoven throughout the Christian world. The Divine Right of Kings ring a bell? And yes, they conveniently and meticulously documented their crimes against humanity. That's why it's so easy to expose the fraud that is the RCC.

(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I still don't agree with torture, either in the inquisitions or at Guantanamo Bay.
It's good to know secular civilization has had an effect on your religion.



(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Do you reject the United States of America because they torture inmates at Guantanamo Bay. I would hope not, any more than I would reject the church who was a moderating force during a time of savagery in the medieval ages.
I reject their authority to inflict such tortures, and consider all participants to be criminally culpable. The church was the DRIVING force in the middle ages. Well documented thanks to the RCC.


(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  No I like it here. I am not concerned about insults and foul words spoken at me. I point these things out not to defend myself, but rather, to expose the hypocrisy, crudity and banality of atheists in general.
So if you call us degenerate, brutish, and stupid, it's just an observation, but, if we return the insult it's evidence of our godless, beastly, hypocritical nature? More evidence you've come here to start a fight. Talk about hypocrisy, you've got it in spades.


(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Being a lamb among wolves on an internet forum is not harmful or threatening in even the slightest. When I become a lamb among wolves in the real world I will face the potential for martyrdom. Compared to that a few insults and negative reps is nothing. Your crudities cannot hurt me here. All they can do is expose the vile nature of your atheist mates.
Then by all means stay. But stop whining when your insults and intellectual dishonesty are returned with insults and stop pretending to be a paragon of virtue. I have seen you throw as many bombs as anyone else, if not more. You're behaving in a rather vile manner yourself.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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23-09-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 01:25 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Go back through my posts. I am honest and I am true. I started off as mild as a dove, but over time I have come to see what corrupt and degenerate people you are. A true den of wolves. I say it like it is without any kind of sanctimonious religiosity. Christ himself called the pharisees vipers.
You demonstrate my point beautifully. I did not insult you in my post and yet you devolve to derogatory comments. Like an abusive partner, you provoke scorn, then use it as an excuse to escalate your abuse. You clearly came here to pick a fight.

And yet, he ran from the science fight I wanted to start. Ask him what happens he drops an object; maybe some day one of us will get an answer.

He's a special little guy, all right.

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23-09-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In fact the opposite is true. I regard you as men in the image of God, horribly corrupt and degenerate it is true, but still capable of being pricked in the heart by my stern words and potentially repenting and coming to the faith.

Those Cat-o-licks. They do like their pricks and their pricking.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-09-2013, 09:46 PM
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 04:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In fact the opposite is true. I regard you as men in the image of God, horribly corrupt and degenerate it is true, but still capable of being pricked in the heart by my stern words and potentially repenting and coming to the faith.


Yes, because being chauvinistic assholes works so well in compelling rational thinking adults into adopting one's views. I've said it before and I'll say it again, excubitor is a prime example of the kind of person that drives people away from religion.

Keep spewing your ignorance and hate old man, you're doing us more favors than you know. Drinking Beverage

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24-09-2013, 03:31 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 07:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Did I honestly hear you defending the torture committed by Catholics and boiling it down to "oh come now...it wasn't that bad. We didn't leave any marks."

Fuck you, Dude. Torture because of what you believe is NEVER ok. G-bay was not torture because they were Islamic..it was to find the people responsible for the murder of 9/11 and to prevent future attacks on the US. I too, would torture a man I thought kidnapped my daughter to find out where she was being held.

Catholics burned "witches" or women who were educated. Why? Because they didn't submit. The inquisition was not about a threat to anyone's life...it was about converting (forcefully) the other religions into the only "right" religion.

Give me a fucking break and read history...in fact, before you do that, actually read the Bible. You clearly haven't!

In fact, the reason I left the RCC was because what I read in the book didn't jive with the deity or teachings they portrayed.

Go ahead, defend the actions of your mafia. Say that they didn't know better because it was the mentality of the time. "We couldn't know better because no one else (the protestants) did." Then what are you for?!? Either the edicts of the RCC are eternal or their not. The fact that they can change their mind in line with what is acceptable to society leads me to believe that I can be morally superior to them.

A homosexual has no choice but to be homosexual. It's their biology. And "god" has to take credit for their biology. If you think they chose their sexual orientation, I'd like to ask you when you decided to be heterosexual. It must have been a big decision for you and one you would remember making. You don't remember because you were born that way.

Your holier than thou attitude comes from your notion that you are saved. You are on the right track, which means all of us must be wrong. Because you can't stomach the thought that you could be wrong, you must work hard to validate your rightness with self righteousness. That is what is so off putting.

Did you ever consider that even if you are right, and god is exists, and we atheists were given unrefutable evidence that he did exist as described in the bible and that every word was true and accurately scribed, that we STILL WOULDN'T WORSHIP A MONSTER such as the god of the bible. He is a murderous, petty, jealous, moody, vindictive abortionist! I don't care if he is real or not - God is an asshole.
That's right, the god of the bible is an asshole and I would RATHER spend an eternity in hell than to spend one second by his side, because to me, that would be an even worse form of hell.

You are free to stay here and debate but that's not what you are doing. Debate is not synonymous with proselytizing. If you were to divorce yourself from your passion and speak on a philosophical level, which means you address te questions directly and not the way you are doing it, then we welcome that debate. The nature of a debate is not to determine who is right and who is wrong, but rather to bring points, questions and ethic implications worthy of consideration to either side. For a debate to be successful, both sides have to concede to certain points.

I've debated plenty of theists on the mathematical impossibility of the accurateness of the bible due to the faulty human memory and language evolution and distortion from multiple translations. Those debates did not include passionate or childish tactics. It was a calm conversation about the merits of the topic with each side conceding possibilities. That's not what you are doing at all. For example, I've had plenty of theists conceded that its less likely that the laws of the universe were suspended to allow for an immaculate conception than for a Jewish minx to tell a lie. It's more likely that Mary lied and was not a virgin (admittance of infidelity would have ensured her death), than it was that Jesus was born of a literal Virgin. You have conceded nothing and that betrays any credibility you might have established. Atheists on the other hand, conceded that it IS possible that there is a god, but you still haven't proven that it cares about what we do with our private parts, and with whom, and what we eat, and on what day.

Atheists have high IQs. You will need to find more IQ in order to debate us. Otherwise your arguments are a child's temper tantrum and I'm sorry to say, very plain and obvious to see.

You have a low IQ, not because you are un-researched or uneducated about the origins and history of your religion (Jesus is not an original story-he has the same beginnings as Dionisis, Horus, and a 1,000 other gods. Coincidence? Me thinks not!). But because you believe that the sun revolves around the earth despite all evidence to the contrary!

Btw - did you disprove gravity yet? Drop an object to see if it falls? I know someone eager to hear your answer.....

As I said in my other post. You would rather die than live in a world where you are responsible for yourself. Church rules - I'm just following them. I am capable of violence and cruelty but hey, thats just how god made me. Not my fault! I realize that it is scary being the boss (I run my own business, I take responsibility for my successes AND my failures). So I get it. I totally get it. The fact that you aren't willing even an iota of self reflection as to why you cannot think critically says a lot about you. You clearly need to follow - like a sheep. We don't need to follow. We blaze our own trails, think for ourselves, and live life as we see fit and question everthing. But hey, thats how god made us right?
For gross, willful and unrestrained blasphemy I shall no longer read or reply to your posts.
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24-09-2013, 03:44 AM
 
RE: I am holier than thou
(24-09-2013 03:31 AM)excubitor Wrote:  For gross, willful and unrestrained blasphemy I shall no longer read or reply to your posts.

Is there anyone remaining whose posts you still read or reply to? Laughat

Would you be so kind to inform us who is or is not on your ignore list, holy man?
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24-09-2013, 04:25 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(23-09-2013 11:27 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
Quote:G-bay was not torture because they were Islamic..it was to find the people responsible for the murder of 9/11 and to prevent future attacks on the US. I too, would torture a man I thought kidnapped my daughter to find out where she was being held.

Are you serious?

If you are, let me just remind you that the people in those planes on 9/11 also THOUGHT they are doing the right thing, had reasons that seemed perfectly fine to them as your reason for torturing somebody who you THINK kidnapped your daughter seems ok to you.

People who burned "witches" also THOUGHT they have perfectly fine reasons to do that.

You are no better then them, you just value YOUR reasons more.

Don't get me wrong, if I really thought that somebody kidnapped my daughter I would torture him to save her life without hesitation, I just wouldn't be that dishonest to proclaim that what I am doing is within my rights.

This is why we have laws and justice system, so people wouldn't go around torturing people or burning witches or flying planes into buildings for reasons they personally find to be enough to justify their actions.

What I'm saying is: Who the fuck are you to decide what are acceptable reasons to torture somebody?
Go back and read my post. I never condoned torture. I specifically stated that I thought it was wrong. In fact I regard it as intrinsically evil and a violation on the rights and dignity of the human person.

Pope Nicholas in 866 AD
If a [supposed] thief or bandit is apprehended and denies the charges against him, you tell me your custom is for a judge to beat him with blows to the head and tear the sides of his body with other sharp iron goads until he confesses the truth. Such a procedure is totally unacceptable under both divine and human law (quam rem nec divina lex nec humana prorsus admittit), since a confession should be spontaneous, not forced. It should be proffered voluntarily, not violently extorted.

This was the traditional teaching of the church and the universal practice to condemn and avoid torture, by which I mean the inflicting of pain to induce a confession.

Then in the 1200's in the West Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull which was not an expression of church teaching of the previous 1200 years but was a concession to the pressure which was being brought to bear upon him by the secular authority who was desperate to break the power of the Cathars whose heresy was threatening the stability of the empire. One of the stipulations Pope Innocent IV made was that the Inquisitor had to have very strong evidence to the point of being convinced that the suspected heretic was guilt of heresy. The torture was designed to obtain a final confession in the hope of saving the individuals soul, giving grounds for the state to execute their punishments upon them, and for the accusing of others who might be suspected of heresy.

Apart from this bull there is no official teachings of the church to claim that torture is licit.
From wikipedia we can get a glimmer of the historical setting of the Inquisition and its use of torturehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition
"According to historian Thomas Madden, the Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people, but rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had committed theft or vandalism. Yet in contrast to those crimes, it was not so easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. One needed some basic theological training — something most medieval lords sorely lacked. The result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.[3]

Madden argues that while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.[3]'

Madden is is an American historian, a former Chair of the History Department at Saint Louis University in St. Louis, Missouri, and Director of Saint Louis University's Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies"

So we can see that things are not so cut and dry as we would like to imagine. It's easy for us to get on our high horse and from our lofty pedestal condemn men who lived in a very different world to us. However if you were in authority what would you have done?
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