I am holier than thou
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17-09-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
Ummm...no, did the Catholic thing, not interested in revisiting.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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17-09-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
Hello Excubitor - Welcome to the forum. Many of us are more than willing to discuss things with theists in a civil manner. I think DLJ and Anjele have offered some great advice (even if DLJ insists on spelling things in his idiomatic and quaint way but I digress).

As a life long atheist I don't have anger towards your or any god as I don't think they exist. If I'm approached by a theist stating that I just hate god/want to sin/be my own god it lends me to believe they are just preaching, have shut off their mind and are not willing to discuss anything.

If you're interested in discussion I do hope you stick around. Sometimes people just get off on the wrong foot due to exuberence. If you're just here to preach I don't think you'll find it an enjoyable forum as we get many of that ilk here and are quite frankly bored to death of them.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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17-09-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(17-09-2013 08:44 AM)Anjele Wrote:  And a note...we aren't theist haters here. One of the admins here is a theist. We are pretty open to anyone who will interact after checking their superiority complex at the door.

This. One thousand times over, this.

Angie, you are one smart, perceptive lady.

Just visiting.

-SR
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17-09-2013, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2013 09:27 AM by absols.)
RE: I am holier than thou
this is the point, the word truth that everyone refer to to mean believing or not, or to invent some lies n reject others
how can everyone mean the same thing by refering to truth ??? when truth is not smthg anyone could even conceive

but there are some facts that noone could deny

truth means positive thing, a thing is true when it exists in constant way

now here from what everyone know started the issue i guess,

constancy could b not supported and agressed

then truth is weak

so powers became the truth

so here we can see the two opposite blocs using the word truth

we have who mean truth as positive thing independant to who means it, so objectively proven

and we have who mean truth as powers force over things, so the sense of strength over positive unconsistency that become called nothing positive, for powers image instead according to who means what he enjoys imagining forcing to b

so we see the second sense of truth is a kind of creation seeking to become real, as if there could exist an absolute powerful one that could force constancy of everything forever

and this what made the believers group

and the rise of evil till it became an absolute fact

in opposition to original truth fact and in the mean to confuse everything with its own self positive wills, so in the hate of things right to stay still or not always independant of anyone
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17-09-2013, 09:11 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(17-09-2013 09:09 AM)absols Wrote:  this is the point, the word truth that everyone refer to to mean believing or not, or to invent some lies n reject others
how can everyone mean the same thing by refering to truth ??? when truth is not smthg anyone could even conceive

but there are some facts that noone could deny

truth means positive thing, a thing is true when it exists in constant way

now here from what everyone know started the issue i guess,

constancy could b not supported and agressed

then truth is weak

so powers became the truth

so here we can see the two opposite blocs using the word truth

we have who mean truth as positive thing independant to who means it, so objectively proven

and we have who mean truth as powers force over things, so the sense of strength over positive unconsistency that become called nothing for powers to b instead according to who means the truth what he enjoys imagining forcing

Knew it. Tongue

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17-09-2013, 09:11 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(17-09-2013 08:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Full marks for honesty. Thank you.

In your journeys around atheist byways of the internet did you consider that word "truth"?

You say "This is because I speak the truth and most people love lies."
Putting your best 'empathy' hat on for a moment, can you imagine how that comes across to a person who has decided upon a different 'truth' through what they believe to be thorough research, consideration, reflection on subjects as diverse as scripture, ancient myth history, biology, physics, chemistry or indeed by introspection or even revelation?
No atheist has ever said this to me because they don't actually believe in anything at all. They don't think in terms of truth or lies. They have a vague notion that they should think a certain way because that is the most probable case given the available data and the current understanding of the data. However as soon as the data changes or a better theory presents itself they happily change what they formerly thought to some new idea. They invest no personal stake in "truth" as a believer might, for the simple reason that they are not believers, they are unbelievers.

(17-09-2013 08:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Does it seem as arrogant as an atheist saying to you that they know the truth and you believe lies?
Does saying that people "love lies" not seem like an insult? When I insult someone here, which I often do, I expect to be mocked. It's why I like this place, actually.
I am not making any personal insult to any particular person. I am making a generalisation that atheists love lies and hate the truth. This is often a kind of vague motivation of the inward man that the atheist is not really aware is driving him, but there are some atheists who actively lie and who deliberately withhold the truth from others. These are very evil people who deceive and mislead others. Many of these evil liars are teachers of history, geology, astronomy, biology and other disciplines which are diametrically opposed to the notion of God and which deliberately assemble lies to keep their students in a state of darkness and deception. Why would I say that I am of the light if I did not expose to you those who are in the darkness?

(17-09-2013 08:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  btw, correct spelling of "generalisation". You were obviously raised on the right side of the Atlantic. Thumbsup

More interestingly, you say, "It is clear to me that this abuse is generally motivated by anger, resentment against God, religion, the church or authority figures who were considered to be religious which the atheist then transfers onto believers in God who he/she encounters."

Well, I can't speak for whoever you are referring to but 'anger' or at least 'frustration' might be right... with religion / church / authority figures at any rate. This could be true.
But not anger towards any deity.

That would be like me saying I am angry with Zeus or the Easter Bunny or Unicorns. Big Grin

I like unicorns.
Not so. To equate the belief in God with belief in unicorns, zeus or the Easter bunny is a common canard. Billions of people around the world believe in God and most of our western culture of music, art, society and morality has its origins in the practice of the Christian religion. The first book ever printed was a Bible. I would say that the vast majority of atheists originally believed in God (even though they did not believe in the tooth fairy). They then rejected God and became atheists. On the other hand agnostics generally grew up with no teaching or instruction about God so they had no notion of God to reject. Such men are very impassive about God. Atheists however have generally made conscious and direct decisions to reject God and have become active disbelievers in God.

In many ways this active disbelief and rejection of God is the other side of the coin of their former belief and acceptance of God. The greater the love for God that they had when they believed, the greater the hatred and rejection of God is when they turn from that belief and reject God. Disbelief is not really an absence of belief, it is rather an active decision to not believe. Disbelief is a direct attack and challenge of God which taken to its extreme ends in relegating God to the same status as the easter bunny. Such thinking is the greatest insult that can be possibly be mustered against God.
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17-09-2013, 09:19 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(17-09-2013 09:09 AM)absols Wrote:  this is the point, the word truth that everyone refer to to mean believing or not, or to invent some lies n reject others
how can everyone mean the same thing by refering to truth ??? when truth is not smthg anyone could even conceive

but there are some facts that noone could deny

truth means positive thing, a thing is true when it exists in constant way

now here from what everyone know started the issue i guess,

constancy could b not supported and agressed

then truth is weak

so powers became the truth

so here we can see the two opposite blocs using the word truth

we have who mean truth as positive thing independant to who means it, so objectively proven

and we have who mean truth as powers force over things, so the sense of strength over positive unconsistency that become called nothing for powers to b instead according to who means the truth what he enjoys imagining forcing

Give me something praiseworthy and I'll praise it because... I do not lie ... I understood this post and what's more, I actually agree with it.

This could be the start of a beautiful relationship.

Of course, I may have completely misunderstood it and I'm just deluding myself.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Bravo sir! Please keep it up.

Yes

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17-09-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(17-09-2013 08:42 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Excub...you may have better luck if you speak as yourself and not as though you are talking through divine influence.

Tell us what you believe, think, etc. Not what you think you are supposed to say to the heathens.
Strange post. I pray that I am talking acting, living and thinking through divine influence. I pray that everything about my regenerated self is a product of my divine creator and that my sacrifice of my life and yielding in obedience to his tiniest instruction transforms me as a son of God.
I deny that this destroys my individuality. Instead I believe that it establishes my individuality as God created me to be. God created me as an individual to live out the unique vocation which he divinely appointed me to. It is in living out this purpose that we find joy and fulfillment because we have grown to be the individual that God created us to be.
When I speak to the heathen therefore I speak as myself and as through divine influence both together. There is no conflict. This is because God lives in me through the action of his Holy Spirit causing me to live and to do his holy will. However he only does so with my co-operation. He does not make us into robots but works with us over many years showing us the right path which will bring us joy and loving teaches us the right paths and how to behave, like any father teaches his son how to choose the right path and how to behave.

God is our father and we are his children if it be that we obey him like any good son obeys his father.
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17-09-2013, 09:33 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
(17-09-2013 09:11 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 08:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Full marks for honesty. Thank you.

In your journeys around atheist byways of the internet did you consider that word "truth"?

You say "This is because I speak the truth and most people love lies."
Putting your best 'empathy' hat on for a moment, can you imagine how that comes across to a person who has decided upon a different 'truth' through what they believe to be thorough research, consideration, reflection on subjects as diverse as scripture, ancient myth history, biology, physics, chemistry or indeed by introspection or even revelation?
No atheist has ever said this to me because they don't actually believe in anything at all. They don't think in terms of truth or lies. They have a vague notion that they should think a certain way because that is the most probable case given the available data and the current understanding of the data. However as soon as the data changes or a better theory presents itself they happily change what they formerly thought to some new idea. They invest no personal stake in "truth" as a believer might, for the simple reason that they are not believers, they are unbelievers.

(17-09-2013 08:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Does it seem as arrogant as an atheist saying to you that they know the truth and you believe lies?
Does saying that people "love lies" not seem like an insult? When I insult someone here, which I often do, I expect to be mocked. It's why I like this place, actually.
I am not making any personal insult to any particular person. I am making a generalisation that atheists love lies and hate the truth. This is often a kind of vague motivation of the inward man that the atheist is not really aware is driving him, but there are some atheists who actively lie and who deliberately withhold the truth from others. These are very evil people who deceive and mislead others. Many of these evil liars are teachers of history, geology, astronomy, biology and other disciplines which are diametrically opposed to the notion of God and which deliberately assemble lies to keep their students in a state of darkness and deception. Why would I say that I am of the light if I did not expose to you those who are in the darkness?

(17-09-2013 08:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  btw, correct spelling of "generalisation". You were obviously raised on the right side of the Atlantic. Thumbsup

More interestingly, you say, "It is clear to me that this abuse is generally motivated by anger, resentment against God, religion, the church or authority figures who were considered to be religious which the atheist then transfers onto believers in God who he/she encounters."

Well, I can't speak for whoever you are referring to but 'anger' or at least 'frustration' might be right... with religion / church / authority figures at any rate. This could be true.
But not anger towards any deity.

That would be like me saying I am angry with Zeus or the Easter Bunny or Unicorns. Big Grin

I like unicorns.
Not so. To equate the belief in God with belief in unicorns, zeus or the Easter bunny is a common canard. Billions of people around the world believe in God and most of our western culture of music, art, society and morality has its origins in the practice of the Christian religion. The first book ever printed was a Bible. I would say that the vast majority of atheists originally believed in God (even though they did not believe in the tooth fairy). They then rejected God and became atheists. On the other hand agnostics generally grew up with no teaching or instruction about God so they had no notion of God to reject. Such men are very impassive about God. Atheists however have generally made conscious and direct decisions to reject God and have become active disbelievers in God.

In many ways this active disbelief and rejection of God is the other side of the coin of their former belief and acceptance of God. The greater the love for God that they had when they believed, the greater the hatred and rejection of God is when they turn from that belief and reject God. Disbelief is not really an absence of belief, it is rather an active decision to not believe. Disbelief is a direct attack and challenge of God which taken to its extreme ends in relegating God to the same status as the easter bunny. Such thinking is the greatest insult that can be possibly be mustered against God.

I'm tempted to critique your post line by line and point out the ironies (child-abusing priests), fallacies (ad populum etc.) and other face-palmy stuff but it's getting late here and I haven't been sleeping well.

So instead, just two things:
1) An attempt to get to know atheists as individuals rather than generalising would go down well here (and IRL, I wager).
2) Please explain how your hypotheses fit with the facts regarding those here born atheist (which we all were) not indoctrinated into any faith and therefore remain atheist? e.g. KidC, above.

Cheers

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17-09-2013, 09:34 AM
RE: I am holier than thou
Showing us the right path and bringing joy?

Please explain why then homosexuality is considered an intrinsic moral evil by your own Roman Catholic Church.

How does that bring joy?

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