I am not proud to be an American
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24-01-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 12:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-01-2015 12:25 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  My days of blind, flag-waving pride are long gone. We've done too much miserable shit in the world.

It's not like unfounded tribal guilt is an improvement over pride...

When we blow up a house and kill and entire family because we think we saw someone we want to kill go in there it isn't too hard to work up a feeling of shame.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-01-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 10:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Congratulations by the way Vosur on getting engaged! Will you be getting married in Germany or America? We got married in Germany.
Thanks. We plan to get married in Germany as well. Yes

(24-01-2015 10:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  We needed to hire an official translator though which is required if either one of you is not fluent. I can't remember the German word for it, not √úbersetzer because that's for written word. Began with a D.
I think the word you're looking for is "Dolmetscher." I doubt we'll need to hire one of them because I speak both English and German fluently.

(24-01-2015 10:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  We also had to get our birth certificates translated. We actually gave up on the idea of getting married in Germany until we realised that a lot of the conditions did not apply to us because we were EU citizens. A colleague at work helped us out though.
It would be much more complicated if I wasn't a German citizen already for sure. It makes her immigration significantly easier.

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24-01-2015, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2015 12:33 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 02:59 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(23-01-2015 05:30 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Isn't it great you have the constitutional right to free speech? isn't it great you can choose to move somewhere else? Freedom of choice is a powerful right, perhaps you should invoke it if you aren't happy here. Big Grin

You know I love you gwg, but this is a terrible attitude. If you're not proud to be an American, maybe that means you should do something about it. In America, homosexuals don't have equal rights. If you don't like it leave? No. If you don't like it, do something about it. If there are specific things you don't like, stand up and make a difference advocate for change.

I am not proud to be an American either. Why should I be? I was born here. Is that some sort of accomplishment? No, it's not.

I am also not particularly proud of America. Does that mean I should leave? I suppose that's an option, but I think it makes more sense to stay. This is my home and if I don't like it I should change it. If your front door is broken do you fix it or do you move to a new home?

Ya I swung by the forums and kinda misread his intent. I get twitchy when I hear the non stop anti us, anti gov, anti cop rhetoric ad nauseam on a daily basis in this country, it is becoming the "cool thing" to hate america....and that is fine, I look around at ourselves and I kinda dislike what I see as well. I look at the non stop parade of religious fanatics we continue to put into public office and I want to just bang my head over the stupidity of it all...we have much to fix in this country, but i have traveled the world, and we are better off then many, have a better system then many, and there are some countries that make us look like uneducated, military biased, uneducated spoiled brats as well...but it is always good to come back home when I have been abroad.

The problems we have in this country are many, religion being a large portion of that in my opinion, and we have much to do to catch up with other first world countries. That being said, I dont think the constant undermining, largely popular anti america, anti cop, anti everything of this country hate is something that is a positive influence for change to the better. When I see some dickweed burn a flag, I want to kill him with my bare hands...I have bled for that flag, I have killed for that flag, and I will be damned if I will sit idly by and watch some tool exercise his "freedom of speech" by burning the flag I have sworn to serve, for example.

Just gets me hot under the collar, I have been in uniform my entire adult life, and I have done good things in the name of this country, in the community, and the world, and that doesnt get press time, what gets press time is assholes screaming i hate america, then yes, if you hate it that much, pack your shit and get the fuck out. I am not saying we shouldnt voice our discontent, but the non stop anti american crap is getting on my nerves....stop voting for religious politician pricks then, and maybe we can fix some shit.

Yes, we need to push for consistent change for the better, no flipping cars and burning cop cars isnt the answer IMHO, neither is breeding never ending contempt for america...we do bad like everyone else *points to stupid religious politicians*, and we do a lot of good in the world as well. But lets not talk about that..or that everyone runs to america for help for every fucking thing from national weather disasters, to invasions by your neighbor.

Just gets me on edge, sorry if I offended, you got to remember I have spent my life in uniform trying do the right thing, and be a good american.

carry on with the hate thing, it is popular and I get the attraction.

EDIT: love you to by the way, I am not railing on you in anyway, when i say you in my reply, i dont mean YOU, I mean people...I am just voicing my frustration over the current climate in america, and it drives me crazy. Those with the biggest mouths typically know the least about what they are screaming about, yes we need to change things, no discontent doesnt mean, like it or leave, but the non stop drama needs to stop....dont like things? fix them, vote your conscience, stop putting these bible thumping pieces of shit into power. Smile

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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24-01-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 11:22 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(24-01-2015 02:59 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You know I love you gwg, but this is a terrible attitude. If you're not proud to be an American, maybe that means you should do something about it. In America, homosexuals don't have equal rights. If you don't like it leave? No. If you don't like it, do something about it. If there are specific things you don't like, stand up and make a difference advocate for change.

I am not proud to be an American either. Why should I be? I was born here. Is that some sort of accomplishment? No, it's not.

I am also not particularly proud of America. Does that mean I should leave? I suppose that's an option, but I think it makes more sense to stay. This is my home and if I don't like it I should change it. If your front door is broken do you fix it or do you move to a new home?

Ya I swung by the forums and kinda misread his intent. I get twitchy when I hear the non stop anti us, anti gov, anti cop rhetoric ad nauseam on a daily basis in this country, it is becoming the "cool thing" to hate america....and that is fine, I look around at ourselves and I kinda dislike what I see as well. I look at the non stop parade of religious fanatics we continue to put into public office and I want to just bang my head over the stupidity of it all...we have much to fix in this country, but i have traveled the world, and we are better off then many, have a better system then many, and there are some countries that make us look like uneducated, military biased, uneducated spoiled brats as well...but it is always good to come back home when I have been abroad.

The problems we have in this country are many, religion being a large portion of that in my opinion, and we have much to do to catch up with other first world countries. That being said, I dont think the constant undermining, largely popular anti america, anti cop, anti everything of this country hate is something that is a positive influence for change to the better. When I see some dickweed burn a flag, I want to kill him with my bare hands...I have bled for that flag, I have killed for that flag, and I will be damned if I will sit idly by and watch some tool exercise his "freedom of speech" by burning the flag I have sworn to serve, for example.

Just gets me hot under the collar, I have been in uniform my entire adult life, and I have done good things in the name of this country, in the community, and the world, and that doesnt get press time, what gets press time is assholes screaming i hate america, then yes, if you hate it that much, pack your shit and get the fuck out.

Yes, we need to push for consistent change for the better, no flipping cars and burning cop cars isnt the answer IMHO, neither is breeding never ending contempt for america...we do bad like everyone else *points to stupid religious politicians*, and we do a lot of good in the world as well. But lets not talk about that..or that everyone runs to america for help for every fucking thing from national weather disasters, to invasions by your neighbor.

Just gets me on edge, sorry if I offended, you got to remember I have spent my life in uniform trying do the right thing, and be a good american.

carry on with the hate thing, it is popular and I get the attraction.

Agreed GWG and well put.

Instead of the mantra of 'I Hate America', which isn't helpful - do something to make it better. I get tired of hearing from Americans that they hate this country. If you don't like it you can leave or work toward the changes you want to see.

My grandfather came here from Germany and became a citizen many years ago. He had to learn English, have a trade skill, a sponsor, and there were several other requirements all of which he met. He did cabinetry work on the ship to pay for his passage. I have to assume he thought it was worth it.

For such an awful place there are a shit ton of people willing to do whatever it takes to come here to live. Dodgy

I would like to know what country is perfect. I have never been told of such a Nirvana.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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24-01-2015, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2015 12:28 PM by Losty.)
RE: I am not proud to be an American
It's just...the whole "if you don't like it, leave" attitude is so ignorant. It's embarrassing. I like America. I think it's a great place to live. But it's not the best country in the world. We are not #1 in education, health care, or even freedom. I am not interested in standing around with my eyes closed and my fingers in my ears chanting "America is number one. America is number one."
I am much more inclined to speak out against the things I think are wrong and things I want to see changed. If you want to call that "hating America" you are mistaken. Maybe, I care about this country enough to be honest about things that need fixing. Maybe, I care enough to think we should be striving to actually be number 1 instead of pretending we already are. Maybe, I look at history and imagine what would have become of this country if the whole the "if you don't like it, leave" attitude was the response to anti slavery talk, or people who wanted women's rights. Every privilege we enjoy is because someone stood up and said this is something I don't like about America, let's change it, not this is something I don't like so I guess I'll just leave.
America is awesome, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. And like I said, being proud to be an American is a silly notion. I am proud of things I accomplished, and being born isn't really an accomplishment to me.


ETA: I don't think that you are ignorant. I just hate to hear someone I respect and consider intelligent saying things I expect to hear from Uncle Si.

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24-01-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
As this topic goes on it does bring up a quirk about the term "pride" and how there is a strong contrast of 2 ways people view the term. I first picked this up from a public radio show about words/phrases and how they're used and their origins called AWayWithWords.

To some people, they are bothered by people saying, I'm proud of you. Like the idea of being proud of someone else because they think pride is only a self accomplishment. Others have no problem using the term to say they're proud of someone else for working hard at something. I wonder how this comes to play in the situation of being proud to be something via birthright.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-01-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
I also think though that it's OK to dislike the county that you were born in and raised in. You had no choice in the matter and if your home country's cultural values are not in keeping with your own then you may find that you are much happier living somewhere else. I have always considered it a filtering effect and you can often see this in other countries far more than say America which is huge and difficult to move out of.

For example, some Scots go down south and live in London and although they keep their accent as far as I am concerned many of them are Londoners. They moved somewhere more in keeping with their aspirations and values and never intend moving back. Whereas some English move up to Scotland and although they have an English accent they fit in much better than some locals who never bothered moving out but which don't want to be here. I personally plan on never living in England again if I can help it because I cannot be happy there. That doesn't mean to say that I don't appreciate the good things about the place, it's just not for me.

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24-01-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 12:16 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  It's just...the whole "if you don't like it, leave" attitude is so ignorant. It's embarrassing. I like America. I think it's a great place to live. But it's not the best country in the world. We are not #1 in education, health care, or even freedom. I am not interested in standing around with my eyes closed and my fingers in my ears chanting "America is number one. America is number one."
I am much more inclined to speak out against the things I think are wrong and things I want to see changed. If you want to call that "hating America" you are mistaken. Maybe, I care about this country enough to be honest about things that need fixing. Maybe, I care enough to think we should be striving to actually be number 1 instead of pretending we already are. Maybe, I look at history and imagine what would have become of this country if the whole the "if you don't like it, leave" attitude was the response to anti slavery talk, or people who wanted women's rights. Every privilege we enjoy is because someone stood up and said this is something I don't like about America, let's change it, not this is something I don't like so I guess I'll just leave.
America is awesome, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. And like I said, being proud to be an American is a silly notion. I am proud of things I accomplished, and being born isn't really an accomplishment to me.


ETA: I don't think that you are ignorant. I just hate to hear someone I respect and consider intelligent saying things I expect to hear from Uncle Si.

I believe we are of the same opinion overall, we are both unhappy with the state of affairs in america. I just dont think the non stop negative verbal onslaught against america by americans and everyone else fixes anything but create that much more negatively. Like a ever increasing storm...and those in uniform; cops, military, of which the majority try to do their job with integrity, and honor, are on the receiving end of this perspective...and it can jeopardize their safety even more, as more and more people get caught up in this uber popular hate america, hate cops, hate military phase we are in.

to "affect change" we need to change the politics in this country, but the odds of an openly atheist candidate getting voted into office is about the same odds of me winning the mr olympia body building contest...zero.

I respect your opinion, and even agree with it, I just highly dislike the current state of things in this country where we as americans are clinging to anti american vitriol as the norm.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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24-01-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 10:22 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(24-01-2015 10:04 AM)yakherder Wrote:  That's too bad. I'm about 5 months away from being eligible for Canadian citizenship. As long as I don't start running for office or something, dual is not a problem. Good thing, since I intend to stay in the U.S. National Guard to finish that part of my retirement even while living and working in Canada.

I'm not much for pride, but I do believe in patriotism. Not as a declaration that your country is better just because it happens to be your country. More like recognition of the fact that it is a necessary survival advantage for a nation to have at its core people who put the needs of the nation before their own. Since the fates of Canada and the US are somewhat intertwined, I don't see it as a conflict of interests.

Whether or not a country deserves it is irrelevant. North Korea, for example, would benefit from a few more patriots and a few less scared drones.

A little patriotism exhibited by the Iraqi soldiers, when they still had the advantage, would have stopped ISIS dead in its tracks in a matter of hours, and with minimal casualties. But instead they said fuck this, why should I risk myself for this country?

I agree.

Patriotism is not the same as pride. They are intertwined, but not the same.

And good deal on your service. My nephew just went in the NG as well - making him the 4th generation in our family to do service.

It is nice to be able to leave active duty and even live in a different country and still finish my military retirement, not to mention get paid to leave the grind, hop the border, and go camping/shooting every so often Tongue

'Murican Canadian
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24-01-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: I am not proud to be an American
(24-01-2015 12:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  to "affect change" we need to change the politics in this country, but the odds of an openly atheist candidate getting voted into office is about the same odds of me winning the mr olympia body building contest...zero.

And if an atheist did get elected they'd probably be part of the anti uniform demographic, as that demographic ironically seems to be the least likely to have seen the reality of the world beyond their bubble even if they could theoretically have the potential to see the bigger picture.

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