I am now churchless.
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19-04-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I told them that I would rather be around atheists than Christians.

Me too.

I'm sorry you're stuck with all this stress. I think your long, spoilered post about what happened is a perfect illustration of how humans have the capacity to screw up everything, good or bad, once we start in with our own power-games, machinations, and ambitions.

Religion is not immune from this problem. In fact, it might be more prone to it that most anything else humans do.

I'll gladly debate all day long about whether there is a god, and interesting points can be made on both sides, but any debate about whether most religious institutions are corrupt tools used by scheming leaders to exert their own power ambitions seems to me to be an already a foregone conclusion. In short, I'm not at all surprised that some churchgoers can and do on occasion make political power grabs within their church - this behavior is a staple crop of religions and has been throughout history.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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19-04-2013, 12:54 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 12:46 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(19-04-2013 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I told them that I would rather be around atheists than Christians.

Me too.

I'm sorry you're stuck with all this stress. I think your long, spoilered post about what happened is a perfect illustration of how humans have the capacity to screw up everything, good or bad, once we start in with our own power-games, machinations, and ambitions.

Religion is not immune from this problem. In fact, it might be more prone to it that most anything else humans do.

I'll gladly debate all day long about whether there is a god, and interesting points can be made on both sides, but any debate about whether most religious institutions are corrupt tools used by scheming leaders to exert their own power ambitions seems to me to be an already a foregone conclusion. In short, I'm not at all surprised that some churchgoers can and do on occasion make political power grabs within their church - this behavior is a staple crop of religions and has been throughout history.

Although I agree with your sentiment, there is some conclusion-jumping going on.

There could be a genuine grievance that triggered this dismissal. Perhaps the committee are sparing the guy's reputation by not making it public.

Not saying it's so just saying that, right now, the lack of transparency is the problem.

Root cause... unknown.

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19-04-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 11:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-04-2013 10:34 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Wow....that's just awful. But seriously KC, good for you for standing up and doing what was RIGHT.

You really not only "talk the talk" but you can also, "walk the walk!"

Thank you for that.

I just hate that any of this had to happen.

Well of course, but you still stood tall for you believed.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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19-04-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I've been documenting this on the private part of the forum because I know I had church members that read what I post here. But now, I don't care. And, it's over. So, it's all irrelevant. I'm going to copy and paste my updates from the other topic.

Keep in mind... they are long.

1:
I've never been shy about expressing my discontent with the people at my church and how I've been limited due to my theological stance; likewise, I've also haven't been shy about expressing my discontent about certain church members that flirt with libelous, blasphemous, and slanderous talks.

I don't think I've ever said anything to TTA, not that it matters, but my pastor and I have a good relationship. He is a great man... a wonderful man. And, he's poured his life... 28 years as a senior pastor... into this church. The dude has never had a moral slip... never had the "power" go to his head... never stolen a dime. He's the type of person that epitomizes "Christian behavior". I don't arbitrarily throw that type of compliment around.

Last week, it came to my attention, that there were some strange things afoot at the Circle K. For those of you that don't know, Southern Baptists have a bassakwards government system that instead of an authoritarian style of government (per the Bible), they rely on a democratic system.

So, instead of

Pastor--->Elders=Associate Pastors--->Congregation

it's

Congregation--->Pastor=Committee=Associate Pastors

Our by-laws follow the latter. Congregation first, then pastor/committee/associate pastors.

The Personnel Committee (in charge of maintaining order and compliance of the pastors) that consist of 6 members are forcing a resignation of my pastor.

They did this secretly and in haste (giving him only 2 weeks).

Now, as you can probably guess, there are a myriad of problems with this situation.

I) The Personnel Committee has no authority to do what they are doing.

Dismissal of a pastor can only be immediate and by the Personnel Committee if the offense is grievous - adultery/stealing/arrest

If the dismissal is because of repeated, mundane offenses it has to be a congregational vote.

A congregational vote for dismissal can only occur if proper steps have been taken to correct the mistakes.
The corrective process must be documented and evaluated by the Personnel Committee as well as the Associate Pastors
The corrective process must be presented to the congregation.

II) The decision to force a resignation was done secretly.

III) The decision to force a resignation was done in extreme haste.

IV) The Personnel Committee's vote was not unanimous. It was 4-2.

V) None of this information has been made public to the congregation.

Now, as you can see, this presents a MASSIVE problem... and has me livid. I have so much anger towards this situation that I can barely think straight.

I have decided to put my foot down, though. Next week, if my pastor announces his resignation, I will... right then and there... publicly denounce his resignation as well as the decision of the Personnel Committee.

Then, God willing, if I am allowed to address the congregation, I am going to rip into this whole fiasco.

I will ask for the Personnel Committee to publicly identify themselves and identify how they voted.
I will ask them how they can justify their actions.
I will ask them why this decision was made in secret and done in haste.
I will question the integrity of the Personnel Committee.
If they cannot give a satisfactory answer and it's made obvious that they have violated the church's by-laws, I will then demand their resignation from the Personnel Committee and demand a public apology to the entire congregation for their actions.
If they refuse, I will ask for an invoking of Paul's instructions on how to deal with church members that cause issues and are deceitful and refuse to ask for forgiveness - I will demand that they be removed from the church... yes, kicked out.
Finally, I will call for a public vote for whether or not to demand a resignation of our pastor. Our pastor is beloved by the congregation... he seriously has like a 95% approval... so I don't see this going awry.

I'm taking a huge risk in doing this... as I could become a target; also, my actions could also be viewed as "inappropriate". But, my actions can be back up with scripture, but as most of you know, not many Christians read the Bible.

It's just a strange set of events... do whatever form of "praying" y'all want to do for me. I need all the help I can get.

I'm all about justice... and what's happening to this man isn't right. I want to fix it.

Edit:
I also want to acknowledge how all of you have helped me to gain this confidence. Y'all have helped me see the corruption that exists with many Christians. Y'all have helped me see that these type of Christians need to be forced into public scrutiny.

So, thanks for that.

2:
The personnel committee set up a date (agree upon by the deacon board) for a church vote... then sent out a letter stating that the vote was for his severance package not whether or not he was going to stay... then tried to change the date to a Wednesday instead of a Sunday without approval.

The pastor sent out a letter saying that he wanted to stay and he is being forced to resign and that the vote isn't going to be about his severance... but about whether or not he stays.

The committee canceled the meeting because of the letter and is now pressing legal charges against the pastor because something about mentioning the severance in the letter without approval. Now, they aren't offering him anything.

It's pretty disgusting.

3:
Welp...

...I told off the people behind all of this tonight at the business meeting. I wasn't nice. I didn't hold back. Pretty sure I've got some enemies now.

Fine by me. They can choke on their horrible excuse for a church for all I care.

I'm leaving this Southern Baptist refuse behind me forever.

4:
Okay, since I am keeping y'all in the "know", let me give y'all the gist of what happened.

Basically, we were voting on our pastor's severance package. The curator of the meeting was one of the main deacons or something like that. Anyway, he is against the pastor.

He was allowing people to speak for or against the package. The first person that spoke was against the pastor. My hand flew up in the air. The next person to speak was for the pastor. She was sitting on the left hand side of the church. I was sitting on the far right side in the front row (lol go figure, right?).

As soon as the lady finished, the curator turned towards the middle of the church, and another deacon's hand few up. He immediately called upon him.

This is when I knew there was an agenda. This man spoke against the pastor, and proposed a new package with far less severance.

The curator then floored the amendment. That's when I stood up and yelled, "Hey! I need to talk."

The guy said there wouldn't be any more discussion because the amendment was on the floor. I said that I had my hand up before the amendment was proposed. He said, "Sorry, I didn't see you."

I said, "You need to look harder then."

He said again that there was going to be no more discussion. I then said that since there for 2 "againsts" and only 1 "fors" the other "for" needed to be heard. I now had him cornered because he couldn't seem biased, and if he denied me, his agenda would be obvious.

I walked over to him and snatched the mic from his hand.

I started out saying, "Several months back, I stood before this church asking for money on behalf of my atheist friend. Y'all gave this atheist $700; no questions asked, so that person could get back on their feet. And now, y'all are trying to deny your pastor, a man that faithfully served all of you and this church for 28 years his livelihood."

I said that the fact that this meeting has to exist is disgusting, and the actions being portrayed tonight spit in the face of Christ.

I said I'm ashamed of the church, and how would atheists react to Christians acting this way? Thank God they're not seeing this.

I said no wonder why people hate Christians.

I told them that I would rather be around atheists than Christians.

Finally, I told them that neither me nor my family would ever step foot in this church again or be a part of a Southern Baptist church in my lifetime.

I gave the mic back and left. I went and got my kids from the nursery and from the playground and went home.

My father-in-law told me people were cheering and clapping for me. I don't really know. I was too angry to hear anything and I left too quickly. I never turned around or looked back.

I'm done. When I say I'm done... I mean it.

So yeah... that's what happened last night. I'm a pretty quiet and chilled dude until you piss me off.

Oh, FYI - the pastor received a full year of severance, a full year in the parsonage, gets to keep his insurance for a full year, and all the other miscellaneous requests by him were accepted. Basically, he got the full package.

5:
...I really feel like just letting out a string of profanities...

So, it begins...

I've got people wanting to "talk" to me.

I've people saying, "Don't reject Christ!"

They are so self absorbed that it doesn't even occur to them that THEY are the problem... not God.

Mindless drones.

...I swear, if someone comes to my house or comes to me to talk, I'm probably going to drop them. I'm not dealing with that BS.

This might be imature but

that......was......Awesome

Yep, you have officially become the coolest Christian I have known ( well, perhaps besides Lapkine77 on YT). The fact that you could stand up to B.S. like that shows that you are by no account holding on to the churches sheepma. If every christian acted like you then the world would have a lot more green and not so much red.

Good luck finding a new church man. I hope that it all works out for ya.

^^^^ That coming from a heathen. Who'da thought.

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19-04-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 03:07 PM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  ^^^^ That coming from a heathen. Who'da thought.

Off your meds again I see. Back to the nuthouse with you! Back I say!

Tongue

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19-04-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 12:46 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(19-04-2013 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I told them that I would rather be around atheists than Christians.

Me too.

I'm sorry you're stuck with all this stress. I think your long, spoilered post about what happened is a perfect illustration of how humans have the capacity to screw up everything, good or bad, once we start in with our own power-games, machinations, and ambitions.

Religion is not immune from this problem. In fact, it might be more prone to it that most anything else humans do.

I'll gladly debate all day long about whether there is a god, and interesting points can be made on both sides, but any debate about whether most religious institutions are corrupt tools used by scheming leaders to exert their own power ambitions seems to me to be an already a foregone conclusion. In short, I'm not at all surprised that some churchgoers can and do on occasion make political power grabs within their church - this behavior is a staple crop of religions and has been throughout history.

I do have to throw my opinion in here. Even though I agree with you for the most part, not everyone is out for power. My father was the pastor for a church in a small town for twelve years, very good dude. Kinda like KC, I have a ton of love and respect for the guy, and so did everyone in the church.

Turns out, the district pastor for our denomination got old and decrepit or whatever, and resigned. It happened pretty suddenly and nobody knew quite what to do. My dad, being as respected as he is, was asked to leave his home church in order to fill the role, because there was noone else that anybody could think of better for the job.

As hard as it was to leave his congregation, and as hard as it was for the congregation to let him go, he did it. For the good of the church. And everyone supported it.

Religion doesn't always mean politics. (you won't hear me say that often)

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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19-04-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 03:07 PM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  that......was......Awesome

Hey, slab!

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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19-04-2013, 03:41 PM
 
RE: I am now churchless.
kingschosen Wrote:Well... it's just one of the tenets I believe in. I believe in limited atonement - sufficient for all but only meant for some... which is why there are only some elect.

I'm actually not in total disagreement here. It's like I don't believe in predestined salvation where everyone who is saved is saved already and will go to heaven no matter what. But on the other hand, I don't believe that all men are created equal when it comes to spirituality. There are some folks who seem, quite literally, born for hell.

Even in this forum, there are some atheists who seem to be seeking something. But there are others who utterly hate the idea of God and Christ, and they seem to hate people pretty much the same way.

In your opinion, what is the purpose of evangelism? What is the purpose in telling people about Jesus Christ? If salvation is predetermined, are you saying that there are some who can turn but won't without our wittness? That would make evangelism necessary. Or, are those who are elect, elect from birth and nothing changes heaven or hell for people--thus rendering evangelism pointless.

Or is there among people some who will never turn and be saved, some who might turn and be saved, and some whom God has chosen to be saved and so directs their life toward salvation?

I don't mean to rattle on, but I have no theory on this. I believe people have to become Christ--that's what salvation is. Ironically, that's more supported in the New Testament than in the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospels just presuppose it, but the letters of the early Apostles seem to spell it out (which is where I got the idea to begin with).

But I have no theory on who gets saved. Part of me thinks it is an election by God alone, and Jesus certianly seems to support that in his teachings. He's very elitist. Nevertheless, there's no sense to Jesus' ministry if there isn't a choice people can make. At the same time, even if God blinds himself to the knowledge of who will or won't be saved, He still knows it in some part of His mind.

Do we agree if I make this statement:

There are those who will never be saved; there are those who cannot avoid salvation, and there are those who might be saved.

Or is evangelism just us shooting off a flare and hoping to attract the others who are saved as well?

If you could answer some of this, it might very well help me shape the direction of my ministry. Right now I'm locked and loaded and ready to rock and roll, I just don't know where to point the gun.

Tom Cruise feels my pain:



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19-04-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 03:11 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-04-2013 03:07 PM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  ^^^^ That coming from a heathen. Who'da thought.

Off your meds again I see. Back to the nuthouse with you! Back I say!

Tongue

Bechased

It's not the lack of meds that's the problem. It's the fact that I think I took to many on accident. Feeling all giddy and stuff. I'm losing my ability to properly take an " all christians are really secretly out to take away our rights and force us into a theocracy where we have to pray to Yahweh or be stoned to death." position. Think I might need a doc to recheck my prescription. If I start thinking that KC doesn't have some behind the scenes malevolent plot, then I'll fall for it. Then....well, who knows how bad that will turn out.Unsure

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19-04-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 03:29 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I do have to throw my opinion in here. Even though I agree with you for the most part, not everyone is out for power. My father was the pastor for a church in a small town for twelve years, very good dude. Kinda like KC, I have a ton of love and respect for the guy, and so did everyone in the church.

Turns out, the district pastor for our denomination got old and decrepit or whatever, and resigned. It happened pretty suddenly and nobody knew quite what to do. My dad, being as respected as he is, was asked to leave his home church in order to fill the role, because there was noone else that anybody could think of better for the job.

As hard as it was to leave his congregation, and as hard as it was for the congregation to let him go, he did it. For the good of the church. And everyone supported it.

Religion doesn't always mean politics. (you won't hear me say that often)

You misunderstood me. I don't think every pastor of every church is a powermonger. In fact, I believe most of them aren't. Sure, maybe for some it strokes their ego a bit, kinda like being a manager of a McDondalds strokes the manager's ego a bit too, but that's not really a power trip. You gotta get higher up the ranks than pastor before you (usually) find the powermongers, climbing that ladder, eyes on the Pope's throne (for example), playing the political game to clutch at more and more power as they rise in respect and authority and, well, power.

So when I was talking of religious leaders, I meant those guys.

But they set the example, and petty political crap starts to happen at every level as the common churchgoers emulate that example. Not all of them. But it only takes one, or a few, to start the fire, like what happened in KC's church - an example of little people strutting around, trying to grasp at anything to flex their political muscle and feel bigger than they really are.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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