I am now churchless.
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20-04-2013, 04:44 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 02:04 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 05:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Since I believe in absolute predestination (God has preplanned and controls every bit of minutia), I don't think that we have a choice to evangelize or not. I think God plans that and uses it according to His purpose.

I think God uses evangelism... plans for a person to do it... then prepares the recipient... then if it's that person's time for a regeneration, God uses the tool of evangelism.

To me, it's just another way God uses for regeneration.

Without God, evangelism is pointless... impossible even. So, it's not a matter of not evangelizing... because I couldn't not evangelize if I wanted to if God had planned that for me since I can't defy God's predestination.

I think other Christians don't fully understand a Calvinists point of view of evangelizing... we do it because it's God's predestined plan for us to do it... because... it might be the way God chooses for someone to be regenerated. We can't choose against it.

Make sense?

Acutally, yes. As I sit here and read what you wrote I'm struck with the fact that monism (that is if God is the fundamental monistic consciousness)...I can hardly bring myself to say it...requires absolute predeterminism. And this is kind of rocking my boat, right now. I hadn't realized this before.

And right after I wrote this post to you. I went to work, and I opened my Bible (VGJC) and the very next verse there was for me to read...I kid you not! was this:

And Mary asked Him, “Lord, is everybody to be saved or only a few?”
And Jesus said, “The Father chooses one from a thousand and two from ten thousand and they stand together as a single one.

(VGJC 33:12-13)

People will scoff, but to me, I consider that a miracle. I had no idea that verse was the next verse I would read when I asked you these questions. So, I am rocked again, because the very bible I use states very clearly with a disciple asking point blank and Jesus answering directly.


Quote:I believe that there is no "might". There are those chosen for salvation and damnation.

I can see that. I mean, people might ask why God would do it, but he would do it for the elect. In other words, those people pre-chosen for damnation exist for some reason for the sake of the elect.

Quote:Yep. Salvation is becoming one with Christ - the Almighty God. Something we can never do on our own, which is why God as to choose us and prepare us.

I completely agree with that statement. 100%

Quote:If God's plan for Christ was infinite (supported by omniscience), then Christnhad to do what He did to fulfill the plan that was set up. Why God set it up that way can't be answered, I think.

Indeed. As with almost every other aspect of the universe, God did it one way instead of another, and ultimately, we aren't going to know "why?" If there is a progression of souls after death gradually leading to a oneness with God, then we might know, but of course, if that's the case, "we" wouldn't exist anymore, because we'd have the mind of God. So again, only God would know.

Sorry for the sophmoric chain of thinking there.Blush

Quote:Jesus was a crucial link in God's plan for salvation of the elect for all time. That was the point of Jesus... not that people would choose Him, but that the elect would has His righteousness imputed on them.

I completely agree with that statement.


Quote:Again it's simply an unavoidable tool for us. God uses us. He uses us to evangelize, and we have no say-so in the matter.

Yes, I see that. I see it strongly enough, that if there is anything in the Veridican Articles of Faith that is contradictory to that, I will change the Articles of Faith by fiat. But I don't think there is. If there is it would only be the Salvation article. Let me look...

No not at all. In fact, the entire articles seem to be talking only to an "elect" group of people anyway.

Even article 15, Evangelism, which reads:

We believe it is our duty to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ to whoever will listen in hopes the seed of the Word of God will grow within them and transform them into Christ. We evangelize because we love our fellow human being, even as God loves us all, therefore we evangelize with fervor, commitment, and by any means necessary.

It's only describing what we do--our motivation--our obedience to God--the "whoever will listen" clause is answered very simply: they are the "elect."

Quote:The good part about this is that God has planned all evangelism... so none of it is a waste. There is a reason for it all.

Hope this helps, Ed.

Very well said, and it has helped me a great deal. It's like a weight has been lifted, an impossibly heavy weight: I don't have to save anyone. All I have to do is what God has designed me to do, and He'll take it from there.

I have come to realize, that Veridicanism, like Calvinism, does support pre-election and predestination. Interesting. Very interesting. Consider


A belief in 'predeterminism' or predestination, elect vs. non-elect, is simply bat-shit crazy.

You are both bat-shit crazy.Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-04-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 04:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  If atheists are reading what we wrote, that was planned by God. For whatever reason that may be.

Atheists are reading what you wrote because you wrote it on an atheist message board.

I suppose god told you to do it. Tongue

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20-04-2013, 06:14 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
KC, so do you make any decisions? Or are events predetermined so you need not make decisions?

The more I think about this predetermined thing, the more it looks like anything one did would be totally pointless.

Just sit back and let whatever happens, happen, since it was predetermined to happen anyway.

Consider

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20-04-2013, 06:40 PM
 
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 04:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  A belief in 'predeterminism' or predestination, elect vs. non-elect, is simply bat-shit crazy.

You are both bat-shit crazy.Drinking Beverage

Well aren't you a genius. That's the best you can 'dis. You need to take some lessons from your pal Buckey Ball.

And if you're an atheist, you must believe in absolute determinism as well. There's no escaping it.
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20-04-2013, 07:02 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 06:40 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 04:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  A belief in 'predeterminism' or predestination, elect vs. non-elect, is simply bat-shit crazy.

You are both bat-shit crazy.Drinking Beverage

Well aren't you a genius. That's the best you can 'dis. You need to take some lessons from your pal Buckey Ball.

And if you're an atheist, you must believe in absolute determinism as well. There's no escaping it.

Atheists don't believe.

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20-04-2013, 08:08 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 04:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm glad you understand Calvinism a little better.

This is what I understand about Calvin(ism)
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20-04-2013, 09:13 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 07:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 06:40 PM)Egor Wrote:  Well aren't you a genius. That's the best you can 'dis. You need to take some lessons from your pal Buckey Ball.

And if you're an atheist, you must believe in absolute determinism as well. There's no escaping it.

Atheists don't believe.
This atheist has no faith in absolute... anything. That's what Gwynnies is for. That god character is only a means of communication. You communicate with a Bible in your hand for a reason. And that reason ain't god, that reason is power. And that's idolatry. Tongue

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20-04-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: I am now churchless.
I'd just like to thank KC and Egor for this lesson in how the theist minds perform backward engineering.

Very revealing.

Of course we all do it.

For the materialists (physicalists) amongst us will absorb new facts and re-evaluate their existing models to draw new conclusions.

In this regard, yes, we are also predeterminalists insofar as we cannot change the laws of physics (god's plan Laughat ); there are rules of motion for the tiniest of particles and the mightiest of galaxies.

With a powerful enough computer, I probably could compute the next moment in time that I light my next cigarette or sneeze or burp. Or the likelihood that I will stifle that burp so as to give myself the erroneous impression that I have freewill.

I gotta add that I didn't really understand what KC and Egor were talking about but it was interesting to observe the process.

Thanks.

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21-04-2013, 05:49 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 06:40 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 04:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  A belief in 'predeterminism' or predestination, elect vs. non-elect, is simply bat-shit crazy.

You are both bat-shit crazy.Drinking Beverage

Well aren't you a genius. That's the best you can 'dis. You need to take some lessons from your pal Buckey Ball.

And if you're an atheist, you must believe in absolute determinism as well. There's no escaping it.

I really enjoy how you tell atheists what they believe. As usual, you are wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-04-2013, 12:03 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2013 06:46 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I am now churchless.
(20-04-2013 04:04 PM)Egor Wrote:  Atheists have no business even reading what KC and I discuss theologically. It is not for you.

Then get a fucking room! It's like copulating in the public square and then saying "Hey quit looking at us!" The fuck's wrong with you.

(20-04-2013 07:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 06:40 PM)Egor Wrote:  And if you're an atheist, you must believe in absolute determinism as well. There's no escaping it.

Atheists don't believe.

The fuck we do. What she said. Many of us reject the concept of "belief" entirely and choose to live pragmatically based on the best currently available interpretation while being completely aware that interpretation will inevitably change. No "belief" required. And once again Ego®, you have demonstrated your complete ignorance of even the most basic tenets of rational argument.

(20-04-2013 05:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yep. Salvation is becoming one with Christ - the Almighty God. Something we can never do on our own, which is why God as to choose us and prepare us.

You grossly underestimate the divine nature and power of humanism, Girly thinks.

(20-04-2013 04:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 02:04 PM)Egor Wrote:  Acutally, yes. As I sit here and read what you wrote I'm struck with the fact that monism (that is if God is the fundamental monistic consciousness)...I can hardly bring myself to say it...requires absolute predeterminism. And this is kind of rocking my boat, right now. I hadn't realized this before. ...

A belief in 'predeterminism' or predestination, elect vs. non-elect, is simply bat-shit crazy.

You are both bat-shit crazy.Drinking Beverage

Not to mention either a complete ignorance, callous disregard, or misunderstanding of quantum superposition. Everett's crazyass Many-worlds interpretation is far more understandable and grounded than predestination.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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