I am now churchless.
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19-04-2013, 06:49 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(18-04-2013 11:48 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(18-04-2013 11:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Or maybe a Quaker Meeting. I've always wanted to see what they're up to.

They have tasty oats.

Yabut... are they tasty Fruity Oaty Bars? Make a man out of a mouse?

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19-04-2013, 07:31 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
Give y'all the details in a bit later... got to do an orientation today.

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19-04-2013, 08:33 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 06:32 AM)Dom Wrote:  What is that church again that is deist but welcomes atheists and everyone?

I think that may be a fun place for you to go... wish I could remember the name of it...it sounded like a place to do the social church thing, yet keep your beliefs intact whatever they are.

You'll be having some "church withdrawal". Once that feeling of being lost is gone, you may find that organized religion is not for you. Doesn't mean you have to become a heathen. But what you don't like about the church you just left is the backbone of a lot of organized religion. You're going to be hard up to find a place devoid of politics and greed.

I have a friend (much older than you) who is very Christian and went to church all her life. She recently experienced a similar situation and left her church. It's been a year and she is still churchless, she has tried a couple and just doesn't like them. She has taken to reading her bible instead. She seems happy enough now.

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19-04-2013, 10:02 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(18-04-2013 02:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  QC and I left our church last night due to some issues that we do not agree with.

It was the church that she grew up in, so there are a lot of good memories there... and, in a weird way, it's hard to leave. But, we couldn't see any other way to handle the situation.

We've both gone a traditional Southern Baptist church most of our lives. At this point, we don't ever want to be associated with the denomination ever again.

This is also supported by the fact that we are Reformed... which is in direct contention with the Arminian beliefs of Southern Baptists.

We know of a few Reformed churches in the area, but if they don't work out, I think we're going to visit some Presbyterian churches.

This is a weird situation for both of us... we've never been churchless or had to find a new church home.

Shopping for a new church can't be easy. I have a couple presbyterian friends and they don't appear too nutty.

Good Luck to you both.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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19-04-2013, 10:17 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
I've been documenting this on the private part of the forum because I know I had church members that read what I post here. But now, I don't care. And, it's over. So, it's all irrelevant. I'm going to copy and paste my updates from the other topic.

Keep in mind... they are long.

1:
I've never been shy about expressing my discontent with the people at my church and how I've been limited due to my theological stance; likewise, I've also haven't been shy about expressing my discontent about certain church members that flirt with libelous, blasphemous, and slanderous talks.

I don't think I've ever said anything to TTA, not that it matters, but my pastor and I have a good relationship. He is a great man... a wonderful man. And, he's poured his life... 28 years as a senior pastor... into this church. The dude has never had a moral slip... never had the "power" go to his head... never stolen a dime. He's the type of person that epitomizes "Christian behavior". I don't arbitrarily throw that type of compliment around.

Last week, it came to my attention, that there were some strange things afoot at the Circle K. For those of you that don't know, Southern Baptists have a bassakwards government system that instead of an authoritarian style of government (per the Bible), they rely on a democratic system.

So, instead of

Pastor--->Elders=Associate Pastors--->Congregation

it's

Congregation--->Pastor=Committee=Associate Pastors

Our by-laws follow the latter. Congregation first, then pastor/committee/associate pastors.

The Personnel Committee (in charge of maintaining order and compliance of the pastors) that consist of 6 members are forcing a resignation of my pastor.

They did this secretly and in haste (giving him only 2 weeks).

Now, as you can probably guess, there are a myriad of problems with this situation.

I) The Personnel Committee has no authority to do what they are doing.

Dismissal of a pastor can only be immediate and by the Personnel Committee if the offense is grievous - adultery/stealing/arrest

If the dismissal is because of repeated, mundane offenses it has to be a congregational vote.

A congregational vote for dismissal can only occur if proper steps have been taken to correct the mistakes.
The corrective process must be documented and evaluated by the Personnel Committee as well as the Associate Pastors
The corrective process must be presented to the congregation.

II) The decision to force a resignation was done secretly.

III) The decision to force a resignation was done in extreme haste.

IV) The Personnel Committee's vote was not unanimous. It was 4-2.

V) None of this information has been made public to the congregation.

Now, as you can see, this presents a MASSIVE problem... and has me livid. I have so much anger towards this situation that I can barely think straight.

I have decided to put my foot down, though. Next week, if my pastor announces his resignation, I will... right then and there... publicly denounce his resignation as well as the decision of the Personnel Committee.

Then, God willing, if I am allowed to address the congregation, I am going to rip into this whole fiasco.

I will ask for the Personnel Committee to publicly identify themselves and identify how they voted.
I will ask them how they can justify their actions.
I will ask them why this decision was made in secret and done in haste.
I will question the integrity of the Personnel Committee.
If they cannot give a satisfactory answer and it's made obvious that they have violated the church's by-laws, I will then demand their resignation from the Personnel Committee and demand a public apology to the entire congregation for their actions.
If they refuse, I will ask for an invoking of Paul's instructions on how to deal with church members that cause issues and are deceitful and refuse to ask for forgiveness - I will demand that they be removed from the church... yes, kicked out.
Finally, I will call for a public vote for whether or not to demand a resignation of our pastor. Our pastor is beloved by the congregation... he seriously has like a 95% approval... so I don't see this going awry.

I'm taking a huge risk in doing this... as I could become a target; also, my actions could also be viewed as "inappropriate". But, my actions can be back up with scripture, but as most of you know, not many Christians read the Bible.

It's just a strange set of events... do whatever form of "praying" y'all want to do for me. I need all the help I can get.

I'm all about justice... and what's happening to this man isn't right. I want to fix it.

Edit:
I also want to acknowledge how all of you have helped me to gain this confidence. Y'all have helped me see the corruption that exists with many Christians. Y'all have helped me see that these type of Christians need to be forced into public scrutiny.

So, thanks for that.

2:
The personnel committee set up a date (agree upon by the deacon board) for a church vote... then sent out a letter stating that the vote was for his severance package not whether or not he was going to stay... then tried to change the date to a Wednesday instead of a Sunday without approval.

The pastor sent out a letter saying that he wanted to stay and he is being forced to resign and that the vote isn't going to be about his severance... but about whether or not he stays.

The committee canceled the meeting because of the letter and is now pressing legal charges against the pastor because something about mentioning the severance in the letter without approval. Now, they aren't offering him anything.

It's pretty disgusting.

3:
Welp...

...I told off the people behind all of this tonight at the business meeting. I wasn't nice. I didn't hold back. Pretty sure I've got some enemies now.

Fine by me. They can choke on their horrible excuse for a church for all I care.

I'm leaving this Southern Baptist refuse behind me forever.

4:
Okay, since I am keeping y'all in the "know", let me give y'all the gist of what happened.

Basically, we were voting on our pastor's severance package. The curator of the meeting was one of the main deacons or something like that. Anyway, he is against the pastor.

He was allowing people to speak for or against the package. The first person that spoke was against the pastor. My hand flew up in the air. The next person to speak was for the pastor. She was sitting on the left hand side of the church. I was sitting on the far right side in the front row (lol go figure, right?).

As soon as the lady finished, the curator turned towards the middle of the church, and another deacon's hand few up. He immediately called upon him.

This is when I knew there was an agenda. This man spoke against the pastor, and proposed a new package with far less severance.

The curator then floored the amendment. That's when I stood up and yelled, "Hey! I need to talk."

The guy said there wouldn't be any more discussion because the amendment was on the floor. I said that I had my hand up before the amendment was proposed. He said, "Sorry, I didn't see you."

I said, "You need to look harder then."

He said again that there was going to be no more discussion. I then said that since there for 2 "againsts" and only 1 "fors" the other "for" needed to be heard. I now had him cornered because he couldn't seem biased, and if he denied me, his agenda would be obvious.

I walked over to him and snatched the mic from his hand.

I started out saying, "Several months back, I stood before this church asking for money on behalf of my atheist friend. Y'all gave this atheist $700; no questions asked, so that person could get back on their feet. And now, y'all are trying to deny your pastor, a man that faithfully served all of you and this church for 28 years his livelihood."

I said that the fact that this meeting has to exist is disgusting, and the actions being portrayed tonight spit in the face of Christ.

I said I'm ashamed of the church, and how would atheists react to Christians acting this way? Thank God they're not seeing this.

I said no wonder why people hate Christians.

I told them that I would rather be around atheists than Christians.

Finally, I told them that neither me nor my family would ever step foot in this church again or be a part of a Southern Baptist church in my lifetime.

I gave the mic back and left. I went and got my kids from the nursery and from the playground and went home.

My father-in-law told me people were cheering and clapping for me. I don't really know. I was too angry to hear anything and I left too quickly. I never turned around or looked back.

I'm done. When I say I'm done... I mean it.

So yeah... that's what happened last night. I'm a pretty quiet and chilled dude until you piss me off.

Oh, FYI - the pastor received a full year of severance, a full year in the parsonage, gets to keep his insurance for a full year, and all the other miscellaneous requests by him were accepted. Basically, he got the full package.

5:
...I really feel like just letting out a string of profanities...

So, it begins...

I've got people wanting to "talk" to me.

I've people saying, "Don't reject Christ!"

They are so self absorbed that it doesn't even occur to them that THEY are the problem... not God.

Mindless drones.

...I swear, if someone comes to my house or comes to me to talk, I'm probably going to drop them. I'm not dealing with that BS.

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19-04-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(18-04-2013 04:41 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  Hey that sucks! I know how important church was for you, I hope you find one that you can be comfortable with!

We are both pretty sad about it. But, it presents a chance to find a Reformed church.

(18-04-2013 05:49 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Let me guess.....over gay marriage?

lol no. That would blow the church up.

(18-04-2013 05:58 PM)nach_in Wrote:  We want dirty details KC, don't tease us

Enjoy!

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19-04-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
Damn! that must've been fun (I'm a law student, I enjoy conflict, and i just realized I might need therapy)

Good for you KC! standing for your pastor and getting him what he deserves. Hope that'll teach them Big Grin

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19-04-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I've been documenting this on the private part of the forum because I know I had church members that read what I post here. But now, I don't care. And, it's over. So, it's all irrelevant. I'm going to copy and paste my updates from the other topic.

Keep in mind... they are long.

1:
I've never been shy about expressing my discontent with the people at my church and how I've been limited due to my theological stance; likewise, I've also haven't been shy about expressing my discontent about certain church members that flirt with libelous, blasphemous, and slanderous talks.

I don't think I've ever said anything to TTA, not that it matters, but my pastor and I have a good relationship. He is a great man... a wonderful man. And, he's poured his life... 28 years as a senior pastor... into this church. The dude has never had a moral slip... never had the "power" go to his head... never stolen a dime. He's the type of person that epitomizes "Christian behavior". I don't arbitrarily throw that type of compliment around.

Last week, it came to my attention, that there were some strange things afoot at the Circle K. For those of you that don't know, Southern Baptists have a bassakwards government system that instead of an authoritarian style of government (per the Bible), they rely on a democratic system.

So, instead of

Pastor--->Elders=Associate Pastors--->Congregation

it's

Congregation--->Pastor=Committee=Associate Pastors

Our by-laws follow the latter. Congregation first, then pastor/committee/associate pastors.

The Personnel Committee (in charge of maintaining order and compliance of the pastors) that consist of 6 members are forcing a resignation of my pastor.

They did this secretly and in haste (giving him only 2 weeks).

Now, as you can probably guess, there are a myriad of problems with this situation.

I) The Personnel Committee has no authority to do what they are doing.

Dismissal of a pastor can only be immediate and by the Personnel Committee if the offense is grievous - adultery/stealing/arrest

If the dismissal is because of repeated, mundane offenses it has to be a congregational vote.

A congregational vote for dismissal can only occur if proper steps have been taken to correct the mistakes.
The corrective process must be documented and evaluated by the Personnel Committee as well as the Associate Pastors
The corrective process must be presented to the congregation.

II) The decision to force a resignation was done secretly.

III) The decision to force a resignation was done in extreme haste.

IV) The Personnel Committee's vote was not unanimous. It was 4-2.

V) None of this information has been made public to the congregation.

Now, as you can see, this presents a MASSIVE problem... and has me livid. I have so much anger towards this situation that I can barely think straight.

I have decided to put my foot down, though. Next week, if my pastor announces his resignation, I will... right then and there... publicly denounce his resignation as well as the decision of the Personnel Committee.

Then, God willing, if I am allowed to address the congregation, I am going to rip into this whole fiasco.

I will ask for the Personnel Committee to publicly identify themselves and identify how they voted.
I will ask them how they can justify their actions.
I will ask them why this decision was made in secret and done in haste.
I will question the integrity of the Personnel Committee.
If they cannot give a satisfactory answer and it's made obvious that they have violated the church's by-laws, I will then demand their resignation from the Personnel Committee and demand a public apology to the entire congregation for their actions.
If they refuse, I will ask for an invoking of Paul's instructions on how to deal with church members that cause issues and are deceitful and refuse to ask for forgiveness - I will demand that they be removed from the church... yes, kicked out.
Finally, I will call for a public vote for whether or not to demand a resignation of our pastor. Our pastor is beloved by the congregation... he seriously has like a 95% approval... so I don't see this going awry.

I'm taking a huge risk in doing this... as I could become a target; also, my actions could also be viewed as "inappropriate". But, my actions can be back up with scripture, but as most of you know, not many Christians read the Bible.

It's just a strange set of events... do whatever form of "praying" y'all want to do for me. I need all the help I can get.

I'm all about justice... and what's happening to this man isn't right. I want to fix it.

Edit:
I also want to acknowledge how all of you have helped me to gain this confidence. Y'all have helped me see the corruption that exists with many Christians. Y'all have helped me see that these type of Christians need to be forced into public scrutiny.

So, thanks for that.

2:
The personnel committee set up a date (agree upon by the deacon board) for a church vote... then sent out a letter stating that the vote was for his severance package not whether or not he was going to stay... then tried to change the date to a Wednesday instead of a Sunday without approval.

The pastor sent out a letter saying that he wanted to stay and he is being forced to resign and that the vote isn't going to be about his severance... but about whether or not he stays.

The committee canceled the meeting because of the letter and is now pressing legal charges against the pastor because something about mentioning the severance in the letter without approval. Now, they aren't offering him anything.

It's pretty disgusting.

3:
Welp...

...I told off the people behind all of this tonight at the business meeting. I wasn't nice. I didn't hold back. Pretty sure I've got some enemies now.

Fine by me. They can choke on their horrible excuse for a church for all I care.

I'm leaving this Southern Baptist refuse behind me forever.

4:
Okay, since I am keeping y'all in the "know", let me give y'all the gist of what happened.

Basically, we were voting on our pastor's severance package. The curator of the meeting was one of the main deacons or something like that. Anyway, he is against the pastor.

He was allowing people to speak for or against the package. The first person that spoke was against the pastor. My hand flew up in the air. The next person to speak was for the pastor. She was sitting on the left hand side of the church. I was sitting on the far right side in the front row (lol go figure, right?).

As soon as the lady finished, the curator turned towards the middle of the church, and another deacon's hand few up. He immediately called upon him.

This is when I knew there was an agenda. This man spoke against the pastor, and proposed a new package with far less severance.

The curator then floored the amendment. That's when I stood up and yelled, "Hey! I need to talk."

The guy said there wouldn't be any more discussion because the amendment was on the floor. I said that I had my hand up before the amendment was proposed. He said, "Sorry, I didn't see you."

I said, "You need to look harder then."

He said again that there was going to be no more discussion. I then said that since there for 2 "againsts" and only 1 "fors" the other "for" needed to be heard. I now had him cornered because he couldn't seem biased, and if he denied me, his agenda would be obvious.

I walked over to him and snatched the mic from his hand.

I started out saying, "Several months back, I stood before this church asking for money on behalf of my atheist friend. Y'all gave this atheist $700; no questions asked, so that person could get back on their feet. And now, y'all are trying to deny your pastor, a man that faithfully served all of you and this church for 28 years his livelihood."

I said that the fact that this meeting has to exist is disgusting, and the actions being portrayed tonight spit in the face of Christ.

I said I'm ashamed of the church, and how would atheists react to Christians acting this way? Thank God they're not seeing this.

I said no wonder why people hate Christians.

I told them that I would rather be around atheists than Christians.

Finally, I told them that neither me nor my family would ever step foot in this church again or be a part of a Southern Baptist church in my lifetime.

I gave the mic back and left. I went and got my kids from the nursery and from the playground and went home.

My father-in-law told me people were cheering and clapping for me. I don't really know. I was too angry to hear anything and I left too quickly. I never turned around or looked back.

I'm done. When I say I'm done... I mean it.

So yeah... that's what happened last night. I'm a pretty quiet and chilled dude until you piss me off.

Oh, FYI - the pastor received a full year of severance, a full year in the parsonage, gets to keep his insurance for a full year, and all the other miscellaneous requests by him were accepted. Basically, he got the full package.

5:
...I really feel like just letting out a string of profanities...

So, it begins...

I've got people wanting to "talk" to me.

I've people saying, "Don't reject Christ!"

They are so self absorbed that it doesn't even occur to them that THEY are the problem... not God.

Mindless drones.

...I swear, if someone comes to my house or comes to me to talk, I'm probably going to drop them. I'm not dealing with that BS.

Wow....that's just awful. But seriously KC, good for you for standing up and doing what was RIGHT.

You really not only "talk the talk" but you can also, "walk the walk!"


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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19-04-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
(19-04-2013 06:49 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(18-04-2013 11:48 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  They have tasty oats.

Yabut... are they tasty Fruity Oaty Bars? Make a man out of a mouse?

[Image: Fruity-Oaty-Bars-commercial-from-SERENITY.jpg]

I scared that if the picture was longer at the bottom, the octopus's tentacles would be in inappropriate places..

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19-04-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: I am now churchless.
Wow KC, much respect. If more people in this world, regardless of their beliefs, were as honest and forthright as you, society wouldn't be in the shithole it is.

I applaud you, sir. Good luck with whatever aftermath may occur.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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