I am so confused...
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29-05-2011, 12:31 PM
RE: I am so confused...
(29-05-2011 12:19 PM)Prokofiev Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 11:05 AM)CONFUSED Wrote:  I've made some research in the Qura'an; amazingly, I found that the number of bones in a human was already in the 1400-years-old Qura'an, I also found that Allah said in the Qura'an that the Earth rotated around the sun....
I really want to find answers, you here have ideas that pretty much convinces me but the Qura'an also has some scientific script that's 1400-years-old and it's true.
I really need help Undecided

Counting the number of bones in the human body is not a "prophecy". That is something that any ordinary human can discover for themselves by dissecting a dead human. Is it nasty, difficult work? Yes, but everyone has the ability to do it. The possibility that someone put that information into a 1400 year old book is not evidence of it being divinely inspired.

The concept of a sun centered universe was not originated by Muslims. Some Greeks postulated that the sun could be the center of the universe.

I used to date a Muslim and she would talk about these sorts of claims made by Muslims about the Qu'ran, so I am somewhat familiar with them. The reality is that ancient humans weren't as ignorant as we tend to think they were, and they put this knowledge into books they wrote, the Qu'ran included. A real test for the Qu'ran would be if it made predictions that ancients humans could not have possibly made on their own. These predictions would also have to be explicit, not subject to interpretation. However, to my knowledge, there are no such predictions in ANY holy book.

Aside from all of this, the tone of your posts gives me the impression that you are very nervous and impatient about this subject. Pardon me if my characterization is wrong, it is not meant to be an insult. My purpose in mentioning that is that I think you should relax and take your time. In my opinion, what is most important is to develop a sound logical thought process that leads to a belief system based upon evidence. Don't trust any individual or text. Question and verify everything. If you do, you will inevitably reach the best answer.

currently, I'm doing this, but if you can feel what I feel, you might see how much corrupted I am right now Sad
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29-05-2011, 12:39 PM
 
RE: I am so confused...
(29-05-2011 12:31 PM)CONFUSED Wrote:  currently, I'm doing this, but if you can feel what I feel, you might see how much corrupted I am right now Sad

Then you are on the right path. It's not always easy, but if you stick with it, you'll be a better, stronger person in the end. I dealt with similar issues (though maybe not to the same degree) growing up in a very strict Christian home, so I can understand all of the pressure you might be feeling.
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29-05-2011, 12:43 PM
RE: I am so confused...
(29-05-2011 12:39 PM)Prokofiev Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 12:31 PM)CONFUSED Wrote:  currently, I'm doing this, but if you can feel what I feel, you might see how much corrupted I am right now Sad

Then you are on the right path. It's not always easy, but if you stick with it, you'll be a better, stronger person in the end. I dealt with similar issues (though maybe not to the same degree) growing up in a very strict Christian home, so I can understand all of the pressure you might be feeling.

okay, can you please tell me more about your experience????
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29-05-2011, 01:13 PM
 
RE: I am so confused...
(29-05-2011 12:43 PM)CONFUSED Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 12:39 PM)Prokofiev Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 12:31 PM)CONFUSED Wrote:  currently, I'm doing this, but if you can feel what I feel, you might see how much corrupted I am right now Sad

Then you are on the right path. It's not always easy, but if you stick with it, you'll be a better, stronger person in the end. I dealt with similar issues (though maybe not to the same degree) growing up in a very strict Christian home, so I can understand all of the pressure you might be feeling.

okay, can you please tell me more about your experience????

Sure. Both of my parents are dogmatic Christians. They believe the Bible should be interpreted literally. They believe that the US should support Israel, otherwise the US will face the wrath of God. They believe they will be raptured. And they both believe that, given my current beliefs, that I will be going to Hell.

I started questioning religion when I was a teenager. The mega-church my family attended was so full of hypocrisy, I was disgusted. This lead to me questioning the entire Christian belief system, but I kept this to myself. I couldn't speak openly about this because I knew I would be punished, so I was left to figure things out on my own (this was before the internet).

Leaving for college gave me my first opportunity to interact with non-Christians and my "backsliding", as my parents liked to call it, continued. I never officially declared that I was an atheist (I still haven't), but it was pretty clear that I was not a devout Christian. My mother would cry a lot. My father punished me in whatever ways he could, doing things like banning me from their home so I couldn't influence my siblings. He even went as far as to meddle in my financial affairs (deliberately screwed up financial aid for my schooling) in a way that cost me tens of thousands of dollars. My parents did this because they believed they were trying to save my soul. They even told me they were praying that I would miserable so I would eventually see the light and "come back to God".

This all happened years ago and it's pretty much over now. I have great relationships with all of my siblings and my mother (though, I avoid talking about religion around her so I don't upset her). My relationship with my father is not so good, but that has nothing to do with religion given that he has a bad relationship with everyone in the family. I don't regret any of the decisions I made. It might have been rough at times, but it was worth it because I am a LOT stronger for having gone through it.
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29-05-2011, 11:10 PM
 
RE: I am so confused...
(28-05-2011 10:30 AM)CONFUSED Wrote:  thank you guys Blush
but am still not 100% convinced, plus, from inside I just feel that converting isn't right and I also feel that it's right!!!
and if you know any ex-muslims, I really wanna talk to one Undecided

hey I am an ex-muslim.

I want to address your concern about miracles in Quran. Imagine that you find a book written several centuries ago. The book contains several prophesies, for example it says that in 1939 a tyrant named Hitler will start a world war. Would you immediately conclude that the book is divine and everything in it must be true? I hope not!
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30-05-2011, 03:05 AM
RE: I am so confused...
edc1186 No, but that would be pretty damn convincing.

CONFUSED There are a few ex-muslims on this thread, who have made posts like This, This, This and a YouTuber.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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01-06-2011, 11:19 AM
 
RE: I am so confused...
Hey CONFUSED. I was a Muslim. I'm from one of the threads which deamonowner linked. Firstly welcome.
I would like to address the prophecy thing. I posted this. For me, by reading the translations of the supposed predictions proved that they predicted nothing.

Here are the few kinds of claimed prophecies/predictions which I would like to classify into:
[1] Accurate predictions but could've already been known long before the Qur'an was written. Example, known facts about animals, remedies, plants and etc..
[2] Vauge predictions. A prediction where the topic is very clear, but there not much information. Then discovery is made which using modern equipments which was not available then. Believer claim that these predictions is consistent with modern findings. This is obviously bullshit. There is no way 2 or 3 verses could be comparable to an entire research paper. Not just one research paper, but one after another on the same topic. If the verses are predictions, just by reading those 2 or 3 verses should be enough for you to acquire all the knowledge in the entire research papers after research papers on the subject.
[3] Prophecies which does not states when. The problem with this is, I can predict that when I role a dice I will get 6, but I don't mention on which role... So I role and role and role until I get a six and yell "There it is!!!" I predicted it!!
[4] Predictions which were claimed after the event has occurred. Some predictions are claimed after the event has occurred. If the event never occurred, the claim would would have never been made, because the verses are just too vague to the point unless you could relate to an already occurred event. This is obviously not a prediction because a prediction of an event needs to be known of before the event for it to be a prediction.
[5] Real Prediction. Here is an example: If there is a ball of a particular mass (give me a value in kilograms), shot up at a particular angle (give me a value in degrees from horizontal) with a particular initial velocity (give me a value in meters per second) assuming that the ball is experiencing earth's gravity (downward acceleration of 9.81... meters per second sqared), using mathematics and Newtonian physics, I can accurately predict the exact flight path of the ball even before we perform the toss. So I performed the experiment and only then the toss is performed and the results is compared and the prediction is accurate... Now that would be a prediction!... Nothing in the Qur'an matches up to this.

I hope this helps.
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01-06-2011, 09:20 PM
 
RE: I am so confused...
One more thing to add...

Let's say the Qur'an really did mention something which could only have been known with modern science. What does that prove?... Nothing. It doesn't prove that everything else in the Qur'an is the true words of God. It only proves that the Qur'an already contained one particular information which were thought to not have been known until modern science discovered it.

But how did the information get there in the Qur'an?... The answer is not "It is unknown therefore God must've gave the information to Muhammad to later recite it with his followers and later got it written down." The correct answer is simply unknown, full-stop (until we find evidence for it, of course). Just in the case of how was the pyramid build without modern equipments?... The answer is not "It is unknown there fore aliens must've built them." The answer is simply unknown.

Unknown obviously refers to us not knowing. You can't get an answer purely out of not knowing the answer, can you?
One more thing to add:

Out of the four verses which is claimed by Zakir Naik to speak of embryological development this is the most detailed one. It speaks of bones and flesh and whatever. The sad part is, according to the translations, the Qur'an states that the bones was developed first then the flesh around it. We now know that the tissues are developed first forming arm and leg buds, then the brain and nerves are developed, then the eye and ear structures form, only then the tissues develop into the vertebra and other bones.

The Qur'an is suppose to be ALL-TRUTH. This proves that it isn't.
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03-06-2011, 04:53 PM
RE: I am so confused...
Hello Confused, may I first also extend my welcome to the TTA forum.

Going down to basics the Qu'ran is just a book, just like the Bible in comparison. They were both written by the hand of man. Man is not perfect, man is subject to make mistakes, mistakes are rooted in the nature of man. How can such an imperfect being prone to making mistakes be able to describe something being the ultimate form of perfection and something not of this world? To me it is like a square trying to be a circle.

The books have been written by man, they are man made, thus not perfect. This imperfect foundation is being used by all religions of the world, thus making themselves imperfect by proxy. The rules created by "religion" are designed for control over man by use for man, not over man by use for "god."

By the way, I wish you good luck in your exams Smile

Quote:"Religion poisons everything." - Christopher Hitchens
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03-06-2011, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2011 06:02 PM by LadyJane.)
RE: I am so confused...
I didn't read every response but wanted to generally reply (and welcome!).

With prophesy, there are a few things. It seems each of your examples fit into one category. There is prediction. It is fairly easy to see that the better the living conditions are, the more people can survive. There is self fulfillment. The quaran is full of bloodshed. Of course in the future there would be more. On rare occasion (I can't think of any off hand) there is coincidence. But after these comes the one that convinces most people- healing and miracles. This is a type of self-fulfillment. Did your grandma believe it would work, or was she even open to the idea it might? The mind is very powerful. This is... Wait for it... SCIENCE. So, perhaps your Grandma's leg got better simply because she wanted it to- the mind controls our body.
When I was in the process of exiting the religious community the one thing that kept me hanging on at the end of it all was a prayer (frenzy) where everyone in the congregation 'received' oil on their nose (anointment) and gold sparkles on their skin and clothes. (you can YouTube this 'miracle'). This baffled me. A couple months later through work (I work in the arts community) I met a magician and we became friends. He does what's called cold reading (many religious leaders do this to preform said miracles). He was also learning hypnotism. He showed me the trick. Basically when you make a suggestion at a certain point in conversation, the brain receives the information. The brain is smart but can be tricked (via different neuron paths) into what truth is perceived. Through chemical process, different reactions can emit sparkles or oil from our body. So, that night people were praying for sparkles and they got 'em. Now they're sparkling for Jesus! Lol. Some leaders (aka magicians) are GOOD at what they do.

Good luck confused, it is hard to figure out the truth when we know our senses could be misleading us.
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