I am totally shocked....
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25-05-2013, 07:40 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(24-05-2013 04:32 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(23-05-2013 08:20 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Don't they say that becoming familiar with the Bible is the best way to turn one against it?

While humorous, that's really not a valid analogy.

How so?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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25-05-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(25-05-2013 07:40 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(24-05-2013 04:32 PM)Impulse Wrote:  While humorous, that's really not a valid analogy.

How so?

Bible: Fiction
America: Not fiction

A person turning against the Bible is outside the Bible.
An American citizen turning against America is inside America.

The Bible is either the inspired word of god or it isn't. So if one part is BS, the whole thing is BS. If you believe a part of America is BS, it may be BS, but the rest isn't - at least not automatically in the same sense. And that sounds weird to say that "part of America is (or isn't) BS, exactly because the analogy is flawed. We would normally say we don't agree with some of what America does or something more along those lines.

I & I in particular is misrepresenting the facts in order to deface America. There is a difference between recognizing that the US government sometimes makes bad choices with serious moral implications and hating the US. It's also easier to understand how someone who lives outside the US would hate the country because they may be victims of those moral implications, may know others who are, or may fear they someday will be too. A citizen of the US doesn't suffer the worst of the consequences. There is also far more to love about the US than to hate and when you live here, that's crystal clear. It's also important to separate the actions of the leaders from the will of the people. Sometimes the will of some of the people does agree even when the choices are morally wrong, but there are plenty who also voice their opposition loudly in those circumstances. When you truly get to know our country from the inside, it doesn't turn you against it unless you're unusual - like someone who distorts the truth and it's no wonder they turn against it.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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25-05-2013, 12:05 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(25-05-2013 11:39 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 07:40 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  How so?

Bible: Fiction
America: Not fiction

A person turning against the Bible is outside the Bible.
An American citizen turning against America is inside America.

The Bible is either the inspired word of god or it isn't. So if one part is BS, the whole thing is BS. If you believe a part of America is BS, it may be BS, but the rest isn't - at least not automatically in the same sense. And that sounds weird to say that "part of America is (or isn't) BS, exactly because the analogy is flawed. We would normally say we don't agree with some of what America does or something more along those lines.

I & I in particular is misrepresenting the facts in order to deface America. There is a difference between recognizing that the US government sometimes makes bad choices with serious moral implications and hating the US. It's also easier to understand how someone who lives outside the US would hate the country because they may be victims of those moral implications, may know others who are, or may fear they someday will be too. A citizen of the US doesn't suffer the worst of the consequences. There is also far more to love about the US than to hate and when you live here, that's crystal clear. It's also important to separate the actions of the leaders from the will of the people. Sometimes the will of some of the people does agree even when the choices are morally wrong, but there are plenty who also voice their opposition loudly in those circumstances. When you truly get to know our country from the inside, it doesn't turn you against it unless you're unusual - like someone who distorts the truth and it's no wonder they turn against it.

Actually...

Bible: Actual, physical book. Can be read, burned, believed, left in hotel room dressers and even soaked with water and placed in hotel room freezers. (Ask DLJ)
America: Human concept. Name assigned to a certain geographical location. Lines drawn on maps do not exist in reality.
Government: Human concept. A group of people who claim a monopoly on the initiation of force in a given geographical area.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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25-05-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(25-05-2013 12:05 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 11:39 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Bible: Fiction
America: Not fiction

A person turning against the Bible is outside the Bible.
An American citizen turning against America is inside America.

The Bible is either the inspired word of god or it isn't. So if one part is BS, the whole thing is BS. If you believe a part of America is BS, it may be BS, but the rest isn't - at least not automatically in the same sense. And that sounds weird to say that "part of America is (or isn't) BS, exactly because the analogy is flawed. We would normally say we don't agree with some of what America does or something more along those lines.

I & I in particular is misrepresenting the facts in order to deface America. There is a difference between recognizing that the US government sometimes makes bad choices with serious moral implications and hating the US. It's also easier to understand how someone who lives outside the US would hate the country because they may be victims of those moral implications, may know others who are, or may fear they someday will be too. A citizen of the US doesn't suffer the worst of the consequences. There is also far more to love about the US than to hate and when you live here, that's crystal clear. It's also important to separate the actions of the leaders from the will of the people. Sometimes the will of some of the people does agree even when the choices are morally wrong, but there are plenty who also voice their opposition loudly in those circumstances. When you truly get to know our country from the inside, it doesn't turn you against it unless you're unusual - like someone who distorts the truth and it's no wonder they turn against it.

Actually...

Bible: Actual, physical book of fiction. Can be read, burned, believed, left in hotel room dressers and even soaked with water and placed in hotel room freezers. (Ask DLJ)
America: Human concept. Name assigned to a certain geographical location. Lines drawn on maps do not exist in reality, but the people in it as well as the land and structures in it do exist in reality.
Government: Human concept. A group of people who claim a monopoly on the initiation of force in a given geographical area. who establish the laws, assume authority over its citizens, and make the important decisions on behalf of its citizens (whether to initiate force would be among the countless decisions).
Fixed that for ya. Tongue

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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26-05-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(25-05-2013 06:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 12:05 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Actually...

Bible: Actual, physical book of fiction. Can be read, burned, believed, left in hotel room dressers and even soaked with water and placed in hotel room freezers. (Ask DLJ)
America: Human concept. Name assigned to a certain geographical location. Lines drawn on maps do not exist in reality, but the people in it as well as the land and structures in it do exist in reality.
Government: Human concept. A group of people who claim a monopoly on the initiation of force in a given geographical area. who establish the laws, assume authority over its citizens, and make the important decisions on behalf of its citizens (whether to initiate force would be among the countless decisions).
Fixed that for ya. Tongue

I love it.

...assume authority...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Wink

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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26-05-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(26-05-2013 08:39 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 06:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Fixed that for ya. Tongue

I love it.

...assume authority...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Wink

Sorry, but I don't get your point.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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26-05-2013, 09:19 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(26-05-2013 09:07 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-05-2013 08:39 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  I love it.

...assume authority...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Wink

Sorry, but I don't get your point.

If one has no legitimate authority, one can only assume authority.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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26-05-2013, 11:07 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(26-05-2013 09:19 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(26-05-2013 09:07 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Sorry, but I don't get your point.

If one has no legitimate authority, one can only assume authority.

Legitimate authority is given by the consent of the people.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-05-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(26-05-2013 09:19 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(26-05-2013 09:07 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Sorry, but I don't get your point.

If one has no legitimate authority, one can only assume authority.

"Assume" in this context simply means "to take on". There is nothing about the word that implies it's not "legitimate".

Tell me, why are you pressing this issue so much? You seem to be supporting that I and I should hate the US. Consider

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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26-05-2013, 05:56 PM
I am totally shocked....
What is wrong with hating an idea? This is like being on a Fox News forum. " he hates amurca"
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