I am totally shocked....
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28-05-2013, 08:03 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(27-05-2013 07:34 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(27-05-2013 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Mostly because you offer no practicable alternative.


Why do you continue to lie about that point? Is it because the thought of treating children with respect makes you uncomfortable?

What is it about not abusing children that bothers you so much Chas?

Again, go fuck yourself.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-05-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
I wasn't going to comment further in this thread, but these were too priceless to resist.

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(27-05-2013 01:54 PM)Impulse Wrote:  If you can't even recognize that the elections are what makes the authority legitimate, then it's completely pointless to continue this discussion.

If fifty men and one woman are on a ship and 49 of the men decide that raping the one woman is the thing to do, is that also legitimate? Is the fiftieth man, who doesn't want to rape the woman required to hold her down for the others?
We were speaking about government and elections, neither of which applies to your attempt at an analogy.

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
Quote:"Government by the people and for the people" apparently falls on deaf ears too.

If you want to live in a community where half your wealth is stolen from you and given to others and where your peaceful actions can be considered criminal, by all means do so. But don't force your will on me. That is the only thing I ask.
Right... because you have no need for anyone else so why bother helping anyone else, right? Why give anything to others when you can keep it all to yourself? Remember that next time you drive in the car built by others on that road built by others to that grocery store stocked by others wearing those clothes manufactured by others protected by the police department. Alternatively, it must be nice not to need food, clothing, cars, roads, or protection. How are those mountains looking?

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
Quote:And fine, it's your own hate, not I and I's you have been arguing for. Feel free to move anytime. Funny, I bet you won't...

Ah yes... the old favorite angry dad argument. My house my rules... if you don't like it get the fuck out. Tongue
Is that really what you got from that? No, it's more like if you're living in a shit hole why would you choose to stay...?

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Why do you think it is that you get so angry when someone points out the irrationality of statism?
I'm not angry. Why would you assume someone who disagrees with your opinion is angry? That's pretty egocentric don't ya think? Laughat

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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28-05-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 02:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I wasn't going to comment further in this thread, but these were too priceless to resist.

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  If fifty men and one woman are on a ship and 49 of the men decide that raping the one woman is the thing to do, is that also legitimate? Is the fiftieth man, who doesn't want to rape the woman required to hold her down for the others?
We were speaking about government and elections, neither of which applies to your attempt at an analogy.

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  If you want to live in a community where half your wealth is stolen from you and given to others and where your peaceful actions can be considered criminal, by all means do so. But don't force your will on me. That is the only thing I ask.
Right... because you have no need for anyone else so why bother helping anyone else, right? Why give anything to others when you can keep it all to yourself? Remember that next time you drive in the car built by others on that road built by others to that grocery store stocked by others wearing those clothes manufactured by others protected by the police department. Alternatively, it must be nice not to need food, clothing, cars, roads, or protection. How are those mountains looking?

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Ah yes... the old favorite angry dad argument. My house my rules... if you don't like it get the fuck out. Tongue
Is that really what you got from that? No, it's more like if you're living in a shit hole why would you choose to stay...?

(27-05-2013 05:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Why do you think it is that you get so angry when someone points out the irrationality of statism?
I'm not angry. Why would you assume someone who disagrees with your opinion is angry? That's pretty egocentric don't ya think? Laughat

Sound like bbeljefe has a poster of Ayn Rand above his bed. Drinking Beverage
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28-05-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 02:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  We were speaking about government and elections, neither of which applies to your attempt at an analogy.

The discussion was about the legitimacy of the state's authority, which is exactly analogous to the scenario I posed. Elections are the vehicle used to make the authority seem legitimate. However, there is no place where you can sign a contract on my behalf or, even your children's behalves because contracts are between signing parties. If I don't sign a social contract or, at at least, use a vote as the signature by proxy, it is not legitimate. Mind you... I didn't say it won't be inflicted on me, I said it isn't legitimate.

Quote:Right... because you have no need for anyone else so why bother helping anyone else, right? Why give anything to others when you can keep it all to yourself? Remember that next time you drive in the car built by others on that road built by others to that grocery store stocked by others wearing those clothes manufactured by others protected by the police department. Alternatively, it must be nice not to need food, clothing, cars, roads, or protection. How are those mountains looking?

If you don't understand the difference between being stolen from and voluntarily purchasing something, I'm happy to explain it for you. Of course I need the services of others. I've never once so much as implied that I didn't. I said I don't want your "representative" sticking a gun to my neck and taking money to pay for services I don't want to buy from him.

Quote:Is that really what you got from that? No, it's more like if you're living in a shit hole why would you choose to stay...?

As if I could actually leave. Have you looked into expatriation lately? Can't leave without significant costs and without signing yourself over to another nation state as a slave first. ;-)

But all that's beside the point. I was born here but I was never asked to enter into any protection or service contracts with the state.

Quote:I'm not angry. Why would you assume someone who disagrees with your opinion is angry? That's pretty egocentric don't ya think? Laughat

I suppose I misread the tone of your comments then.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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28-05-2013, 07:33 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 03:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(28-05-2013 02:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I wasn't going to comment further in this thread, but these were too priceless to resist.

We were speaking about government and elections, neither of which applies to your attempt at an analogy.

Right... because you have no need for anyone else so why bother helping anyone else, right? Why give anything to others when you can keep it all to yourself? Remember that next time you drive in the car built by others on that road built by others to that grocery store stocked by others wearing those clothes manufactured by others protected by the police department. Alternatively, it must be nice not to need food, clothing, cars, roads, or protection. How are those mountains looking?

Is that really what you got from that? No, it's more like if you're living in a shit hole why would you choose to stay...?

I'm not angry. Why would you assume someone who disagrees with your opinion is angry? That's pretty egocentric don't ya think? Laughat

Sound like bbeljefe has a poster of Ayn Rand above his bed. Drinking Beverage

Hero worship would be antithetical to my position, don't you think?

Rand was a good philosopher, but I haven't read all of her works and I've not read any of her fiction. I think highly of Plato as well but alas, I don't even have a Plato doll play set.

Also, if I were going to hang a picture of a philosopher somewhere, it would be in my office, not my bedroom. Thumbsup

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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28-05-2013, 09:21 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
I have still yet to see any explanation as to how a small group of execs manipulating the economy under the title of "corporate execs" is any better than a small group of people under the title of government (current government).

Corporate execs according to randian beliefs, have some magical elixir that makes their decision making much better for society.
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28-05-2013, 09:50 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 09:21 PM)I and I Wrote:  I have still yet to see any explanation as to how a small group of execs manipulating the economy under the title of "corporate execs" is any better than a small group of people under the title of government (current government).

Corporate execs according to randian beliefs, have some magical elixir that makes their decision making much better for society.

You've also yet to understand how voluntary trade works. Which is understandable, given that no one alive today has ever actually seen it in play on a wide scale.

Corporate executives don't manipulate the economy... the state does that through the vehicle of the central bank. Corporate execs do buy favorable legislation from the state and that does affect the economy but again, that doesn't happen absent the state.

In a free market, there is no monopoly on currency so there is no way one company or group of companies can manipulate the value or supply of all the money in trade. Thus... there is no way any company or group of companies can control the economy. Some may have a short term affect on the economy but as soon as they do, another willing competitor will enter the market and capitalize on their greed... thereby stabilizing the economy and ridding the market of nefarious traders.

As for your statement about Rand, it's common for people who don't understand something to call it magic. There was even a time when ignorant assertions like that got people hanged or burned at the stake. Wink

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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28-05-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 09:50 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(28-05-2013 09:21 PM)I and I Wrote:  I have still yet to see any explanation as to how a small group of execs manipulating the economy under the title of "corporate execs" is any better than a small group of people under the title of government (current government).

Corporate execs according to randian beliefs, have some magical elixir that makes their decision making much better for society.

You've also yet to understand how voluntary trade works. Which is understandable, given that no one alive today has ever actually seen it in play on a wide scale.

Corporate executives don't manipulate the economy... the state does that through the vehicle of the central bank. Corporate execs do buy favorable legislation from the state and that does affect the economy but again, that doesn't happen absent the state.

In a free market, there is no monopoly on currency so there is no way one company or group of companies can manipulate the value or supply of all the money in trade. Thus... there is no way any company or group of companies can control the economy. Some may have a short term affect on the economy but as soon as they do, another willing competitor will enter the market and capitalize on their greed... thereby stabilizing the economy and ridding the market of nefarious traders.

As for your statement about Rand, it's common for people who don't understand something to call it magic. There was even a time when ignorant assertions like that got people hanged or burned at the stake. Wink

Your masturbation to corporations is pathetic. Corporations wield great influence over the state and the state is a tool for corporate control. You attack the tool but not the group that uses the tool. Why?
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28-05-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 10:56 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(28-05-2013 09:50 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  You've also yet to understand how voluntary trade works. Which is understandable, given that no one alive today has ever actually seen it in play on a wide scale.

Corporate executives don't manipulate the economy... the state does that through the vehicle of the central bank. Corporate execs do buy favorable legislation from the state and that does affect the economy but again, that doesn't happen absent the state.

In a free market, there is no monopoly on currency so there is no way one company or group of companies can manipulate the value or supply of all the money in trade. Thus... there is no way any company or group of companies can control the economy. Some may have a short term affect on the economy but as soon as they do, another willing competitor will enter the market and capitalize on their greed... thereby stabilizing the economy and ridding the market of nefarious traders.

As for your statement about Rand, it's common for people who don't understand something to call it magic. There was even a time when ignorant assertions like that got people hanged or burned at the stake. Wink

Your masturbation to corporations is pathetic. Corporations wield great influence over the state and the state is a tool for corporate control. You attack the tool but not the group that uses the tool. Why?

Really? Me? The guy who calls corporations a legal fiction? You're accusing me of pulling my dick out and flagellating it over corporations? Are you serious?

If you don't understand something I've said, please ask me to clarify, rather than resorting to ridiculous accusations.

I've said time and time again that business owners (corporations or not) who leverage the state to their benefit do so in defense of having the same done to them. I don't abide that behavior but I do have sense enough to understand it.

The difference between you and me is that I want to eliminate the cause of the cancer and you want to sell some shit, proven ineffective treatment for its symptoms. Wink

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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29-05-2013, 04:08 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 11:10 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(28-05-2013 10:56 PM)I and I Wrote:  Your masturbation to corporations is pathetic. Corporations wield great influence over the state and the state is a tool for corporate control. You attack the tool but not the group that uses the tool. Why?

Really? Me? The guy who calls corporations a legal fiction? You're accusing me of pulling my dick out and flagellating it over corporations? Are you serious?

If you don't understand something I've said, please ask me to clarify, rather than resorting to ridiculous accusations.

I've said time and time again that business owners (corporations or not) who leverage the state to their benefit do so in defense of having the same done to them. I don't abide that behavior but I do have sense enough to understand it.

The difference between you and me is that I want to eliminate the cause of the cancer and you want to sell some shit, proven ineffective treatment for its symptoms. Wink

Oh, you want to eliminate corporations and their tools of control (the bourgeois state) as well?
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