I am totally shocked....
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29-05-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(28-05-2013 07:29 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  The discussion was about the legitimacy of the state's authority, which is exactly analogous to the scenario I posed. Elections are the vehicle used to make the authority seem legitimate. However, there is no place where you can sign a contract on my behalf or, even your children's behalves because contracts are between signing parties. If I don't sign a social contract or, at at least, use a vote as the signature by proxy, it is not legitimate. Mind you... I didn't say it won't be inflicted on me, I said it isn't legitimate.
The state being the government, the legitimacy determined by elections. So yes, that is what we were discussing. Your analogy of 50 men and 1 woman on a ship has no state, it's just a random group of people. Elections don't make authority seem legitimate, they make it actually legitimate. It is the people's choice to hand over their decisions on governing matters to the elected officials. And, if you go back to our founding fathers, it was the people who decided that's how it will work. It was the people who designed our government as it is and the people who have made changes over the years. And don't forget, the elected officials are also themselves part of the people. As for voting, the lack of doing so does not nullify the legitimacy. It is your choice not to vote unless you aren't old enough in which case your parents/caretakers vote on your behalf. If you choose not to vote, you choose to have no say in anything the government does - i.e., you give legitimacy to everyone else who voted to decide for you and the officials who are elected by them to be given legitimate authority by them on your behalf.

(28-05-2013 07:29 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  If you don't understand the difference between being stolen from and voluntarily purchasing something, I'm happy to explain it for you. Of course I need the services of others. I've never once so much as implied that I didn't. I said I don't want your "representative" sticking a gun to my neck and taking money to pay for services I don't want to buy from him.
Ok, so the government decides they will use tax money to fund welfare and you don't agree with it (or, if that's ok with you, pick one you don't agree with). Is that what you are calling stealing? If so, how do you propose a government should operate so that every individual only gets the exact things they want? You do realize that would be impossible! Or are you proposing no government at all. If so, good luck with that when some large government conquers you because you have no military.

(28-05-2013 07:29 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  As if I could actually leave. Have you looked into expatriation lately? Can't leave without significant costs and without signing yourself over to another nation state as a slave first. ;-)
Not true, and even if it was you're providing the reasons why you choose to stay - so it's not so bad after all. Drinking Beverage

(28-05-2013 07:29 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  But all that's beside the point. I was born here but I was never asked to enter into any protection or service contracts with the state.
You grant your permission for those by choosing not to go elsewhere.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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29-05-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: I am totally shocked....
(29-05-2013 10:31 AM)Impulse Wrote:  The state being the government, the legitimacy determined by elections. So yes, that is what we were discussing. Your analogy of 50 men and 1 woman on a ship has no state, it's just a random group of people. Elections don't make authority seem legitimate, they make it actually legitimate. It is the people's choice to hand over their decisions on governing matters to the elected officials. And, if you go back to our founding fathers, it was the people who decided that's how it will work. It was the people who designed our government as it is and the people who have made changes over the years. And don't forget, the elected officials are also themselves part of the people. As for voting, the lack of doing so does not nullify the legitimacy. It is your choice not to vote unless you aren't old enough in which case your parents/caretakers vote on your behalf. If you choose not to vote, you choose to have no say in anything the government does - i.e., you give legitimacy to everyone else who voted to decide for you and the officials who are elected by them to be given legitimate authority by them on your behalf.

And what is any nation state other than a random group of people? It's people who, by sheer accidents of birth, have wound up on the same geographical location. Or in the case of the US, it's a random group of people who landed up on a random piece of land, slaughtered the inhabitants almost to extinction and then set up a nation state with their guns. And no, the US constitution was not agreed upon by "the people" any more than "the people" ordered a hamburger and collectively digested it. The US was formed by a tiny minority of men who had some support of some of the commoners in what is now known as New England. Much of the move westward was away from the newly formed nation state by men and women who didn't want to be slaves to yet another oppressive state.

Lysander Spooner, a nineteenth century anarchist and attorney wrote extensively on the subject of the US constitution and how it was foisted upon "the people". If you care to read some of his works, they're pretty much all free.

Quote:Ok, so the government decides they will use tax money to fund welfare and you don't agree with it (or, if that's ok with you, pick one you don't agree with). Is that what you are calling stealing? If so, how do you propose a government should operate so that every individual only gets the exact things they want? You do realize that would be impossible! Or are you proposing no government at all. If so, good luck with that when some large government conquers you because you have no military.

It doesn't matter whether I agree with how the state spends stolen money or not... it only matters that the money is stolen. Taxation is extracted from the unwilling through threat of death. That, by any sane definition, is theft. If taxation were voluntary, it would be called donation... or payment of services rendered.

You may agree with the state taking your money and that's fine with me. Give them all the money you want. All I ask is that you (and they) accord me the same courtesy I extend to you... and that doesn't just mean I'm allowed to disagree. It means I'm allowed not to send my money to those who pay armies to murder foreigners, occupy their lands and steal their resources.

Quote:Not true, and even if it was you're providing the reasons why you choose to stay - so it's not so bad after all. Drinking Beverage

Look it up. I choose to stay here because my family is here, my business is here, my home is here and I am familiar with this part of the world. And yes, those are the reasons I stay. Although I must say that if there were a place I could go where I wouldn't have to live in a police state, those reasons would probably loose relevance very quickly.

So in the end... better the devil you know.

Quote:You grant your permission for those by choosing not to go elsewhere.

On what planet does that make any sense from a moral perspective? Think about what you said there. Think about a slave owner saying that exact same thing to one of his slaves.

What you're saying is that by not uprooting my entire family, leaving my business and signing up for a new master, I am agreeing to the abuse I suffer from my existing master.

That's the most fundamentally immoral example of parroted indoctrination I've seen and it's the very reason why I say that statism beats religion hands fucking down in the mind control business. Smile

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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