I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
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25-09-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 08:26 AM)MarylinC Wrote:  Religious people use these books like rule books but rules cannot be static.

They need to evolve to adapt to advancing knowledge and moral standards in order to be able to fit in with society.

I doubt whether, during the times they were written, that the authors of "holy books" even had a concept of evolving knowledge, or even much verifiable knowledge at all for that matter. All they had was the idea of inspiration from God, so they made things up thinking that was as good as they could do. And who was there to gainsay them?
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25-09-2017, 10:43 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 10:31 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 10:28 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  Well obviously Wink

Seriously, what about religion is valuable that can't be replaced with secular alternatives?

Maybe more direct to the point, I'm assuming you believe in some kind of personal god that interacts with the world so the question is.... why believe that?

Secular teaching is all well and good, and I don't think I'm saying otherwise. However, since I am a Theist, the best way I can explain it is simply that the subjective world doesn't replace the objective world. Religious belief can really boil down to the subjective. I mean, I can look at a flower objectively and classify it "Flower, this variety" but if I smell it, that smell can bring back memories, which is a subjective experience, unless we all somehow share the same memories. those memories can send you into other memories and if it was say a pleasant experience, you could be seeking to have more experience with that flower, to go back to my rather poor analogy. If you follow my train of thought, a religious belief is pretty much centered on the subjective, a mysterious subjective in fact. Philosophers search for deeper meaning of our lives, of the human experience all the time. For myself, that subjectiveness kept me searching for a deeper sense that there was more then just a very,transitory life that if you're lucky can last 100 years. i don't think subjectiveness can really be explained and it certainly doesn't produce tangible evidence to an observer. But that subjectiveness can lead you on interesting self-journeys.

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 10:53 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
Help me out, new guy. Basically, life too short, me don't wanna die, having an imaginary father figure and a promise of going on forever makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, hence - god? Did I translate this right?

Yeah, secularism has no alternative to this. Other than learning about the *real* universe and hopefully creating a better world - this one, the only one we actually have - for those who will come after us.

You know, silly, *meaningless* things like this. Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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25-09-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
@Targaryen

I think you pointed out pretty well one of the greatest idiosyncrasis of the human mind. We struggle to make the balance between our need for rationality, for proof and evidence and sound judgement and our inherent emotionality, our capacity to feel and express ourselves and the subjectivity of our life experience. Much of human history, art, philosophical development and theology revolves around that conflict and attempt to solve it or express it.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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25-09-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
@Vera

So you're doing the classic insinuation that cause I happen to have a subjective belief that confuses you, I'm not quite aware or as interested in the objective universe? I mean I can certainly be interested in the quantum level activity of quarks or the Higgs Boson, but if I choose to not limit myself to the automatically identifiable, this causes concern?

Help me out as much here. What is it about that subjectivism, that seems to either frighten or confuse you?

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 11:01 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Targaryen

I think you pointed out pretty well one of the greatest idiosyncrasis of the human mind. We struggle to make the balance between our need for rationality, for proof and evidence and sound judgement and our inherent emotionality, our capacity to feel and express ourselves and the subjectivity of our life experience. Much of human history, art, philosophical development and theology revolves around that conflict and attempt to solve it or express it.

Humankind will I think always struggle to find that meaning. I think we have been since our ancestors discovered fire and its them mystical quality of cooking flesh, or making things burn.

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 11:07 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 11:01 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  @Vera

So you're doing the classic insinuation that cause I happen to have a subjective belief that confuses you, I'm not quite aware or as interested in the objective universe? I mean I can certainly be interested in the quantum level activity of quarks or the Higgs Boson, but if I choose to not limit myself to the automatically identifiable, this causes concern?

Help me out as much here. What is it about that subjectivism, that seems to either frighten or confuse you?

And you're doing the classic theist (quell surprise. Not Drinking Beverage ) attributing your own interpretation to other people's words. Of course, as someone who believes in the bible, that has got to be your MO, no?

And if you think any of your pseudo-deep babble caused anything else than a slight exasperated sigh, you're... well, deeply confused, if I may borrow a word Drinking Beverage

Frighten? Concern? Methinks someone doth project way, way too much Drinking Beverage

"mystical quality of cooking flesh?" Now I *am* confused. Facepalm

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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25-09-2017, 11:13 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 10:07 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  We're likely going to struggle with this still, we've made some progress. Not a lot, and less then I would like personally. and we'll certainly have those that scream about "how dare you mess with God's word>" "Or the Koran is God breathed" and thus cannot be touched. But I like to also be hopeful that with culture becoming far more inclusive, less hostile to essentially, anything that isn't a White Male Christian, that maybe that part of religion will improve.


There are many progressive christians who do their best but there are so many different opinions and different vested interests. Since christianity mainly centres around one book where none of the words can be rewritten it's no wonder that thousands of years later christians still can't agree about women's rights, abortion, contraception, gay rights and a miriad of other things.

As an atheist, I appreciate people who are peaceful, kind hearted and treat their fellow humans with respect so I think my moral standards aren't too bad and I didn't need to learn that from a 2,000 year old book.

I believe in natural science and that gods are a man made idea and do not exist. I have no problem with religious individuals who are good hearted. In fact I feel for them and would not wish to hurt them. My problem lies with the concept of religion and how it works.
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25-09-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 11:07 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 11:01 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  @Vera

So you're doing the classic insinuation that cause I happen to have a subjective belief that confuses you, I'm not quite aware or as interested in the objective universe? I mean I can certainly be interested in the quantum level activity of quarks or the Higgs Boson, but if I choose to not limit myself to the automatically identifiable, this causes concern?

Help me out as much here. What is it about that subjectivism, that seems to either frighten or confuse you?

And you're doing the classic theist (quell surprise. Not Drinking Beverage ) attributing your own interpretation to other people's words. Of course, as someone who believes in the bible, that has got to be your MO, no?

And if you think any of your pseudo-deep babble caused anything else than a slight exasperated sigh, you're... well, deeply confused, if I may borrow a word Drinking Beverage

Frighten? Concern? Methinks someone doth project way, way too much Drinking Beverage
Perhaps to you, but I don't seek to change your opinion. And frankly it doesn't bother me what you consider pseudo-babble. I don't feel confused though. Seemed like a good topic to weigh in on, so I did.

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
Targaryen, do you believe in the literal truth of the Bible? Bits of it? All of it? And if you do, how does that sit with your subjective truth stuff that you're talking about? I mean, isn't the Bible claiming *objective* truth?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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