I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
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25-09-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 11:59 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 11:51 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  If you wish to call it a Star Wars helmet, can it be Boba Fett's Tongue

I wouldn't call myself a Christian if I didn't personally believe it. Jesus to me isn't some metaphor, that for me, he did do the what you'd call superhuman or mythical things ascribed to him. And yes, I'm well aware of how that sounds to you. but for me, yeah, it could be seen as a fairy tale or a dangerous superstition but for me was, if the Divine is rel, that the stories are based on some crazy facts, then it makes perfect sense,to a Theist that a Divine would give up his life for our own tendency at times, and history can prove this, that humankind is a always bound to make mistakes. Or to use the Christian term, sin.

And no, it's not intrusive. I mean, I did say off the bat I was coming out of a different mindset then most of you. I just know that my theology, or you'd call it mumbo-jumbo, makes no sense to you all.

But what I'm not understanding is... do you think your religion applies anywhere outside your own head? You say Jesus is real, but you've also said that you don't necessarily believe scripture written by man and that you're aware that you are operating on some sort of subjective belief rather than a belief that can be confirmed with evidence. I don't get how that works, so yeah, you're right, your theology / logic makes zero sense to me. What about the alternate hypothesis that your entire religion which you are following is man made and made up as a tool of social control?

It applies to my daily life, it applies to how I approach the world, so yeah it applies outside my own head. Does that mean I force that down the throats of others? No. I do hate the idea of enforcing a belief.

And your right, religion could very well be a tool of social control. The Romans did it with their cult of the emperor. Ancient Egyptians did it with Pharaoh as god-king. I could be believing in pie in the sky and the flying spaghetti monster or what have you. But governments can and have been, family structures, friends, anything outside of animal instinct you could almost argue. Cause as evolved as humans are, the base instincts are, need food, need water, need shelter, need sleep, need reproduce. So if you look at it that way, anything outside of those instincts can be forms of social control, a need to make sense of everything around us.

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 12:13 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 10:43 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  Secular teaching is all well and good, and I don't think I'm saying otherwise.

"All well and good" is usually meant to express acceptance of an initial statement before introducing a contradictory second statement. And there's no such thing as "secular" teaching.

There's also no such thing as a subjective "world". Subjectivity lies solely within one's own brain; only a single one of another 7 billion subjectivities.

Quote:I can look at a flower objectively and classify it "Flower, this variety" but if I smell it, that smell can bring back memories, which is a subjective experience, unless we all somehow share the same memories. Those memories can send you into other memories and if it was say a pleasant experience, you could be seeking to have more experience with that flower...

And this serves to exemplify the existence of a supernatural entity you call a god how exactly? As a means of self-preservation, humans' olfactory senses are hardwired to our brains. We both perceive the smell of our neighbour's BBQ steak identically; there's no subjectivity about it. And in the same way we both perceive the smell of gasoline as being harmful if ingested. Both reactions rely on learned association; no gods necessary.

Quote:If you follow my train of thought, a religious belief is pretty much centered on the subjective, a mysterious subjective in fact.

Ahhh... the old "I don't understand it, therefore God"?

Quote:Philosophers search for deeper meaning of our lives, of the human experience all the time.

So what?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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25-09-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 12:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I'm not entirely certain I understand how you are using the terms but I don't see any difference from a secular viewpoint regarding subjective experiences. The memories and associations brought on by sights and smells can be pleasant and sought out while still not needing any supernatural component.

Perhaps not. Perhaps my analogy is poor or perhaps I can articulate why there is no possibly to suggest there can't be a supernatural component to other experiences.


Quote:Why does it have to be a mystery to be of value?

I would find life rather too mundane if there wasn't some. I can't speak for you.


Quote:From my perspective that sounds like you are looking for a reason to believe what you wish was true and, not finding any demonstrable reason, you decide to practice a form of self-deception. I would like there to be more than a brief life but the evidence doesn't support that idea and, in many ways, that makes this brief existence much more precious and increases my desire to make it as pleasurable as possible for myself and those I care about.

Perhaps it is a self-deception. Perhaps it isn't. either way, does that self-deception harm you? If not, then why should it concern you?

Quote:I haven't heard anything that explains why you believe in a god or anything supernatural.

I explain why I do. It doesn't actually concern me if it is incomprehensible to you. again, i'm not a dancing bear.

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 12:19 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 12:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I'm not entirely certain I understand how you are using the terms but I don't see any difference from a secular viewpoint regarding subjective experiences. The memories and associations brought on by sights and smells can be pleasant and sought out while still not needing any supernatural component.

Perhaps not. Perhaps my analogy is poor or perhaps I can articulate why there is no possibly to suggest there can't be a supernatural component to other experiences.

With no evidence for anything supernatural I don't see any possibility of there being any such component.

Quote:
Quote:Why does it have to be a mystery to be of value?

I would find life rather too mundane if there wasn't some. I can't speak for you.

I differentiate between what I find to be real and what I might like to be real. I don't understand how anybody could prefer to pretend.

Quote:Perhaps it is a self-deception. Perhaps it isn't. either way, does that self-deception harm you? If not, then why should it concern you?

People who run their lives under an apparent delusion vote. Many try to get legal support for their unsupported beliefs. Many attempt to interfere with science education. Many attempt to deny rights to others because they disapprove of their choices.

You in particular may not be causing any significant harm. Religion as a whole is seriously harmful.

Quote:I explain why I do. It doesn't actually concern me if it is incomprehensible to you. again, i'm not a dancing bear.

Well, first, you haven't explained why other than that you'd like it to be true. Second, I was under the impression that you were here to exchange views. I guess I'll leave it with the thought that if you can't explain why you believe to others it may be because you don't actually have an explanation. At least that's how it comes across, especially when you get defensive at the least questions.

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25-09-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
@ Targaryen

One word you used in particular interested me. You mentioned not wanting to “limit” yourself.

I’m not a scientist but I love learning about natural science and how our world and our universe works. The thing that makes science beautiful sometimes is knowing that we will never know all the questions, let alone discover all the answers.

I was born in the early 1960’s. Back then we had never put a man on the moon. Virtually no one had ever heard of DNA. A telephone was just something tethered to a wall and only had one use and if anyone had asked me if I was on Facebook I’d have looked at them as if they were nuts.

Learning is about searching for the truth. It’s about exploring, about discovery, doing experiments, testing ideas and coming up with proven evidence and discovering the truth.

It seems to me these stories in the bible are just people who didn’t know the answers so they made up their best guess.

It’s great to believe there is more to life and indeed there is. There is an entire universe we still know hardly anything about.

I don’t know who or what created it all but isn’t it more fun to go out and try and discover the answer rather than just relying on made up guesses from stories in an old book? Now that really is limiting yourself.
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25-09-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 11:21 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  But I did say I was weird already. Tongue

Dude, Girly is God and houseofcantor worships Gwyneth Paltrow, you're gonna have to work harder on that "weird" bit if you want to be taken seriously.

#sigh
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25-09-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
@unfogged
I'm not defensive, but I certainly am not also a frog that's ready to be dissected to see how it ticks either. And No offence but I do find some of this repetitive debate spirals and they end up going nowhere.

@MarylinC

The Bible was written 2500 years ago if you go by the earliest set version of the OT and in 1st century Asia Minor for the NT, a lot of the allegory wouldn't hold up to modern understandings specially of the universe around us.

Maybe they did make their best guess, again, I'm not here as a full apologist for my faith nor am I looking to convert others to my way of thinking. I can only say for me something about making the best guess up as they can, a bit from a Robim Williams stand up routine: Where Robin plays a more poetic type of rationale to the story of Genesis and he's talking to an stereotypical,redneck literalist.

Poetic type: "Don't you think that maybe the poetic language, the prose used, Let there be Light,could in anyway be an allegory for the Big Bang?"

Literalist: "No God just went "Click" (motions turning on a lightswitch)

Poetic type: *facepalms*

Perhaps the allegory doesn't hold up, perhaps the supernatural makes no sense to you. But to me, it means something, just as much as your view means to you.

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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25-09-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 11:51 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  I wouldn't call myself a Christian if I didn't personally believe it. Jesus to me isn't some metaphor, that for me, he did do the what you'd call superhuman or mythical things ascribed to him.

Jesus was a shaman. If I turned your water into wine and dosed it with some hallucinogens and dissociatives you'd think I could do miraculous things too. (Which of course, I can.)

(25-09-2017 11:51 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  And yes, I'm well aware of how that sounds to you. but for me, yeah, it could be seen as a fairy tale or a dangerous superstition but for me was, if the Divine is rel,

What is the message of "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," if not the Divinity of Man? Many Christians fail to realize that when they sign up, they are signing up for the recognition of their own Divinity and the responsibility to act as such.

(25-09-2017 11:51 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  that the stories are based on some crazy facts, then it makes perfect sense,to a Theist that a Divine would give up his life for our own tendency at times, ...

Any Christian who fails to recognize universal reconciliation diminishes the sacrifice made by their supposed savior of all mankind.

What kind of Christian are you?

#sigh
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25-09-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 12:54 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  But to me, it means something, just as much as your view means to you.

I'm certianly no expert but I read on Wikipedia that the bible is a collection of works written over the course of 1,500 years and the earliest parts date back to around 1,400 BC.

Anyway, of course you are right that you have a right to your beliefs, the same as me and every other person.

The only problem for me comes when I feel religion is adversely affecting people in ways that cause harm.

It's nice chatting to you though.
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25-09-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 12:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Jesus was a shaman. If I turned your water into wine and dosed it with some hallucinogens and dissociatives you'd think I could do miraculous things too. (Which of course, I can.)

If you can find many that grew in that area of the Levant in the First Century, perhaps.


Quote:What is the message of "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," if not the Divinity of Man? Many Christians fail to realize that when they sign up, they are signing up for the recognition of their own Divinity and the responsibility to act as such.

If we're divine, How come we make so many mistakes then?

Quote:Any Christian who fails to recognize universal reconciliation diminishes the sacrifice made by their supposed savior of all mankind.

What kind of Christian are you?

Not a universalist, that's what Tongue

-If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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