I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
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25-09-2017, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2017 02:18 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 01:05 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 12:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What is the message of "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," if not the Divinity of Man? Many Christians fail to realize that when they sign up, they are signing up for the recognition of their own Divinity and the responsibility to act as such.

If we're divine, How come we make so many mistakes then?

Because divinity doesn't require perfection, duh. Was Jesus perfect? No, by his own admission. " And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18 (KJV) Do you still consider Jesus divine?

(25-09-2017 01:05 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 12:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Any Christian who fails to recognize universal reconciliation diminishes the sacrifice made by their supposed savior of all mankind.

What kind of Christian are you?

Not a universalist, that's what Tongue

Ah, then you must be one of them arrogant fuckers who actually think that what you believe makes some sort of difference to The Man. Your savior is petty and weak. I'll mark you down as just another false Christian who is arrogant enough to think that God gives a shit about what you believe.

#sigh
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25-09-2017, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2017 04:37 PM by Vera.)
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 01:05 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  If we're divine, How come we make so many mistakes then?

Asks the man whose deity of choice had to wipe the slate of its creation clean - by massacring nearly EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING it created - and start afresh because it basically fucked up the first time.

And *this* is what passes for a rational theist? Frankly, were I a theist, I and my intelligence would be offended. Hell, my intelligence is offended even as an atheist. But what else is new? Drinking Beverage

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25-09-2017, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2017 03:05 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 01:53 PM)Dr H Wrote:  At this point, I'm leaning towards "deliberate troll".

I'm going with arrogant weak Christian come to tell Girly about the Word when he's never even fucking heard it. Fucking false Christian. He should take his weak and pathetic savior and shoo, fly. He's not a Christian, he's just yet another fucking fool looking to save his sorry ass from the abyss.

#sigh
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25-09-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 01:39 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 11:21 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  I, as a theist, a progressive one as you would list , don't think that somehow every atheist is flawed and needs to be corrected. That their morals are out of alignment, that type of horse shit. Frankly, I hate that about any religion or how people use it that way.

What the fuck's a "progressive" theist?

To be fair to Targaryen it was me who initially used that phrase in reference to those theists who try to be more accepting about different people instead of sticking to many of the old religious prejudices.
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25-09-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 10:43 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  Secular teaching is all well and good, and I don't think I'm saying otherwise. However, since I am a Theist, the best way I can explain it is simply that the subjective world doesn't replace the objective world.

Unfortunately, most theists do not agree with you. There are many theists willingly to violently argue that the subjective outweighs the objective.

(25-09-2017 10:43 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  Religious belief can really boil down to the subjective.

Unless an experience can be verified beyond the subjective, then it is of value only to the person that experiences it.

(25-09-2017 10:43 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  But that subjectiveness can lead you on interesting self-journeys.

Yes. Bigfoot sightings, UFO experiences, lake monster encounters and religious experiences.

(25-09-2017 11:01 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  Help me out as much here. What is it about that subjectivism, that seems to either frighten or confuse you?

Catholics pass anti-contraception laws to satisfy their subjective needs.
Muslims behead people who criticize their subjective needs.
The Bosnians, Serbs and Croats murdered each other over subjective beliefs.

Atheists demand objective, verifiable proof before believing in something.

(25-09-2017 12:54 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  I'm not defensive, but I certainly am not also a frog that's ready to be dissected to see how it ticks either.

You have to understand that if you post your views on this forum, those views will be dissected, debated and evaluated. The merits of those views will be judged. You will be asked to support and defend your beliefs.

(25-09-2017 12:54 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  The Bible was written 2500 years ago if you go by the earliest set version of the OT and in 1st century Asia Minor for the NT, a lot of the allegory wouldn't hold up to modern understandings specially of the universe around us.

Which bible? There are multiple copies, multiple translations and multiple traditions. Greek orthodox? The good ol' King James?

(25-09-2017 12:54 PM)Targaryen Wrote:  Maybe they did make their best guess, again, I'm not here as a full apologist for my faith nor am I looking to convert others to my way of thinking. I can only say for me something about making the best guess up as they can, a bit from a Robim Williams stand up routine...

Ascribing modern interpretations to ancient texts is meaningless. People have tried to say the book of revelations describes a UFO abduction. The views, intentions and motivations of the authors of the bible are the important ones. Any modern interpretations are questionable at best.

(25-09-2017 11:21 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  Religion has been used that way since time immemorial, but secularism to has it's own dark periods. I mean off the top of my head I could look at the French Revolution and how that Enlightened period kinda ran amok for a while. But I'm not advocating an either or or both thing here. I merely share my own view point. As distasteful as i'm sure it is, to most of you.

Please do not assume our feelings. It is not at all distasteful to me what you believe. However if you state those beliefs in my presence I will question them and may ask you to substantiate them.

For Example:

(25-09-2017 11:51 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  I wouldn't call myself a Christian if I didn't personally believe it. Jesus to me isn't some metaphor, that for me, he did do the what you'd call superhuman or mythical things ascribed to him.

Prove it. What is the basis for this belief?

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25-09-2017, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2017 04:57 PM by wendigo.)
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 10:43 AM)Targaryen Wrote:  
(25-09-2017 10:31 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Seriously, what about religion is valuable that can't be replaced with secular alternatives?

Maybe more direct to the point, I'm assuming you believe in some kind of personal god that interacts with the world so the question is.... why believe that?

Secular teaching is all well and good, and I don't think I'm saying otherwise. However, since I am a Theist, the best way I can explain it is simply that the subjective world doesn't replace the objective world. Religious belief can really boil down to the subjective. I mean, I can look at a flower objectively and classify it "Flower, this variety" but if I smell it, that smell can bring back memories, which is a subjective experience, unless we all somehow share the same memories. those memories can send you into other memories and if it was say a pleasant experience, you could be seeking to have more experience with that flower, to go back to my rather poor analogy. If you follow my train of thought, a religious belief is pretty much centered on the subjective, a mysterious subjective in fact. Philosophers search for deeper meaning of our lives, of the human experience all the time. For myself, that subjectiveness kept me searching for a deeper sense that there was more then just a very,transitory life that if you're lucky can last 100 years. i don't think subjectiveness can really be explained and it certainly doesn't produce tangible evidence to an observer. But that subjectiveness can lead you on interesting self-journeys.

This guy is my mother-fucking hero. He gets it exactly. Go look up RNA universe. They know shit all about things and they admit it. Go try to get RNA to fold and make a copy of itself. Tell what causes inertia ie why inertia should be. You think you know the answer from high school but you'll see with a bit of impetus. I digress. The most odd bit is, I'm an atheist and he's not, yet we are exactly on about the same thing. This I why I don't by default shit on Christians or other religions ( not that all of you are either btw). I should have titled this post "I believe Christians generally adhere to correct morals" to avoid confusion I suppose. I've only read part of the Bilble which was obvious not the hand of a god. I'm not normally involved in deep religious discussion. I'm 45 years old in Germany with a wife and kid and just trying to do my best while teaching guitar. That's my background so I guess take that into consideration as you will.
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25-09-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
Can I just say, there's absolutely nothing innovative in terms of morality in the Bible. There isn't a single idea or piece of moral advice that hasn't been talked about in writings, religions and philosophies much older than Christianity.

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-Guybrush Threepwood-
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25-09-2017, 05:00 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 04:54 PM)wendigo Wrote:  The most odd bit is, I'm an atheist and he's not, yet we are exactly on about the same thing.

Yeah, I did wonder Drinking Beverage

Get your own bleeding hymn book
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25-09-2017, 05:00 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 04:56 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Can I just say, there's absolutely nothing innovative in terms of morality in the Bible. There isn't a single idea or piece of moral advice that hasn't been talked about in writings, religions and philosophies much older than Christianity.

Yes that's right.
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25-09-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(25-09-2017 05:00 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Yes that's right.

Well, my implied point is, if all the good stuff in the Bible is not exclusive to the Bible and there's also bad stuff added to it, why should it deserve any praise?

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