I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
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22-09-2017, 04:24 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 04:11 AM)wendigo Wrote:  Really? I'm a dishonest person because I think there are some good points made in the bible?

Post 15 in your introduction?

Get your own bleeding hymn book
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22-09-2017, 04:26 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 04:11 AM)wendigo Wrote:  My only point was, I don't see a need to be violently opposed to christianity/christians/other religions simply because it's not necessary to believe in them.

Good for you.

It's all that extra baggage that believers use to justify hatred, bigotry, and other atrocities. While I too do not advocate 'violently' opposing religion (were you under the impression that we did?), there's no reason to give The Bible an unchallenged pass because a few things just happen to not be egregious violations of modern ethics.

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22-09-2017, 04:33 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(21-09-2017 04:09 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Yes, I said it. The moral compass as made famous by the Holy Bible aligns (almost) perfectly with my gut feeling on right and wrong, biology, etc. I feel that to deny the obvious core ideas at the heart of the bible is folly, not because a God commands it, but because it makes moral, biological/evolutional and physical sense.


Having said that, I was raised atheist, and think that the idea of a "God" writing a scripture for human beings to follow overflows all borders on the ridiculous. How to reconcile this with modern ideas on political correctness?

I'll echo what DLJ said. What counts as a "core" idea? This seems to be subjective and cultural. As one example, the divine right of kings (appointed to succeed the judges) was a core idea centuries ago and has since fallen by the wayside as the culture interpreting the Bible has changed.

As far as I can tell, the obvious "moral" core of the Bible is complete service and submission to God in order to reap wondrous rewards and avoid horrific punishment... which in terms implies a moral core of cosmically grand being filled to the brim with unparalleled pettiness. Pretty much every other part of the Bible that might be described as a moral message is framed in and reduced to these terms, whether it be the ten commandments, or the Golden Rule, or the command to charity.
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22-09-2017, 04:44 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
Not seeing it myself. The Bible is a confused mass of contradictory bullshit. As a moral guide it's completely laughable, even if you exclude the old testament and only look at the "New Deal".

UN charter of human rights is a much better starting point. Or Bhuddist eightfold way.

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22-09-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(21-09-2017 04:09 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Yes, I said it. The moral compass as made famous by the Holy Bible aligns (almost) perfectly with my gut feeling on right and wrong, biology, etc. I feel that to deny the obvious core ideas at the heart of the bible is folly, not because a God commands it, but because it makes moral, biological/evolutional and physical sense.


Having said that, I was raised atheist, and think that the idea of a "God" writing a scripture for human beings to follow overflows all borders on the ridiculous. How to reconcile this with modern ideas on political correctness?

Are you willing to expand on what you think the Bible got right more precisely? There is a ton of moral statement in this anthology. Which one make sense and should be listen too despite its origin?

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22-09-2017, 05:14 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 04:11 AM)wendigo Wrote:  
(21-09-2017 09:00 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I believe you are a cherry-picking dishonest person that doesn't acknowledge the obvious moral problems with the bible.

What are your thoughts about hell? Or original sin?

Are you just going to try to cherry-pick your way out of those moral biblical failings?

Really? I'm a dishonest person because I think there are some good points made in the bible? Let's get this straight: I WAS BORN AND RAISED AN ATHEIST. I'm not coming from the same place as a lot of you guys on here ie. disgruntled christians. My only point was, I don't see a need to be violently opposed to christianity/christians/other religions simply because it's not necessary to believe in them. Is this "thinking atheist", or "salty ex-christian"?
I don't beilieve in original sin or hell at all...completely ridiculous. Put your baggage down for a minute people and let's discuss things like adults. Sadcryface2

No original sin or hell? I wonder what book you're reading? Oh that's right, it's your own personal interpretation you pulled out of your ass.

To say that original sin is a "completely ridiculous" concept in terms of biblical doctrine provides evidence of your interminable ignorance:

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

1 Peter 1:18-19
Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

Romans 7:23
But I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Romans 7:18-19
For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

Ephesians 2:2-3
In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Mark 7:20-23
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Romans 7:12-14
So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.



I can go on, but the point is that you are totally dismissing a major point of biblical doctrine when you dismiss the concept of original sin.

Spare me your persecution complex, you are very dishonest, even asserting your credentials (born and raised an atheist) Laugh out load

Jesus' basic, crowning moral teaching was "love one another", while readily explaining that most were destined for hell:

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

The best teaching of the bible is tainted with the doctrine of hell and original sin, and it is CLEARLY in there, despite your ignorant assertions.

I'm not a "disgruntled Christian" as you attempt to gaslight those of us that are former Christians, you can take your nasty attitude and go straight to your "ridiculous" hell. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-09-2017, 06:14 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 04:11 AM)wendigo Wrote:  
(21-09-2017 09:00 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I believe you are a cherry-picking dishonest person that doesn't acknowledge the obvious moral problems with the bible.

What are your thoughts about hell? Or original sin?

Are you just going to try to cherry-pick your way out of those moral biblical failings?

Really? I'm a dishonest person because I think there are some good points made in the bible? Let's get this straight: I WAS BORN AND RAISED AN ATHEIST. I'm not coming from the same place as a lot of you guys on here ie. disgruntled christians. My only point was, I don't see a need to be violently opposed to christianity/christians/other religions simply because it's not necessary to believe in them. Is this "thinking atheist", or "salty ex-christian"?
I don't beilieve in original sin or hell at all...completely ridiculous. Put your baggage down for a minute people and let's discuss things like adults. Sadcryface2

I think if you explain the core good parts you've found in the Bible (as others have suggested), it would help others to better see where you are coming from. The pushback you're getting isn't about being disgruntled ex-xtians. First, not everyone on here is an ex-xtian. People on here come from a variety of religious backgrounds and some were even raised atheist like you. Second, your post is entitled "I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)." The Bible has a lot of hate, misogyny, slavery, punishment, wars, murders, pillaging, raping, beating and so forth within its pages. That is why people are giving you push back in regards to your post.

Also, I'm glad you have some nice Xtian friends, I do as well. Unfortunately though, this is not the case all the time. When you give someone a magic book and tell them it contains "good moral teachings" when it also contains things like murder/rape/slavery/misogyny etc...And you tell them that an all-powerful deity god-breathed this book into existence and he is watching that you carry out his Word or else...the Bible can become a dangerous medium.

While there may be a few good parts to the Bible (and I agree with you, there are a few) for the most part, the Bible is fraught with not good parts. The problem with cherry picking is that not everyone is going to cherry pick and for the ones who don't, that's when any of the "good parts" fly out the window.

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22-09-2017, 06:22 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2017 06:34 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
I think it does a horrible job.
At best it is remarkably incomplete (10 Commandments) and at worst spectacularly Immoral (old Testament)
Even the morality of Jesus which is usually what Christians speak of has horrible moral outrages.
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:27
To pick and choose any of what is left is IMO fruit of the poisoned tree.
In any other space such blatant moral confusion would render the source as unreliable.
The bible allows slavery, genocide, infanticide and a host of other outrages.
It's not like they got close and needed a little tweaking here and there.
It was light years away from anything that could possibly be considered moral by today's standards.
You literally, by a selective reading, could probably use Mein Kampf as an equally reliable moral compass.
If you need to ignore large sections of moral confusion ambiguity and outright moral outrage why would anyone continue to use the rest?
It would be like using a 2000 year old science text.

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22-09-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(21-09-2017 04:14 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Core ideas, that is the Sunday School roster. I get your immediate aversion to anything that might be written in the bible, but I don't think all atheists reject all that is good (in a biblical sense) simply to be contrary to what they perceive as an opposing viewpoint. For example, I oppose a lot of the lifestyles and attitudes that are typically attributed to atheists because they make no sense in the long run, evolution-wise, and are destructive to families and well-being. Like the media's crap-spewing conformism in all it's forms

You're putting the cart before the horse, here. This is the sort of thing that makes sense to you because it fits neatly into your world view.

How do you know what are the "core values" of the Bible opposed to the parts we're not supposed to worry about? It's not like the Bible itself has the core sections specially annotated, or anything.

All you're doing is focusing on the parts that are culturally relevant to you and make you feel good while handwaving all the other parts. The thing is, it's been done before. While you write off the parts that deal with slavery, people used those parts as justification 150 years ago to promote slavery. Again, there's no clear, objective rubric for defining and identifying the "core values". It always lines up with whatever the particular claimant wants it to.

Now, that being said, you're right that we don't have to "reject all that is good" just because some of that good is found in the Bible. I don't reject it. I just don't see anything particularly special about the Bible containing some good things. Every society that managed to survive for any amount of time comes up with the right answers to questions like "is it okay to murder/steal/lie?" If they don't, the society isn't going to last. So, it's not like the ancient Hebrews were breaking some new ethical ground here, or anything. They figured out how to keep their society together with some sort of rule of law, and a lot of their particular rules seem outdated or even horrifying compared to our current social values.
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22-09-2017, 06:38 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(21-09-2017 04:14 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Core ideas, that is the Sunday School roster. I get your immediate aversion to anything that might be written in the bible, but I don't think all atheists reject all that is good (in a biblical sense) simply to be contrary to what they perceive as an opposing viewpoint.

For example, I oppose a lot of the lifestyles and attitudes that are typically attributed to atheists because they make no sense in the long run, evolution-wise, and are destructive to families and well-being . Like the media's crap-spewing conformism in all it's forms
Can you tell me what they are?

As you might be, or at least should be, aware of is that to be an "Atheist", isnt the same as to be christian/hindu/whatever, because we don't all subscribe to the same world view. To be Atheist just means we don't believe in god, that is the only common bond between us. Generally we probably share basic world views, but I'd assume we all have our own ideas about many things.

I, like yourself, am a life long atheist. My world view is shaped by my own choice, and whilst I agree that the bible contains some [very minor] good parts, that doesn't mean you would need the bible to already know this. I didn't fully read any religious text until I was a teenager, does that mean from before that time I was out murdering people and coveting their wives? Not at all.

To my knowledge there is no world view on what an atheistic life style even is? If one assumes you means coming from broken homes and the such like, that doesn't really define as a solely atheist thing.

For example: I hail from a broken home, as does my father, and his father before him. The 2 further back generations are 100% religious, yet they divorced. My father was an Atheist, but my mother is Christian, and they divorced. I'm personally Atheist, and am happily married knowing full well what marriage means in society and to me personally, despite all of the above.

So, you may want to not phrase things so generally, when it comes to atheism. With you being an atheist yourself, you're painting yourself with the same brush

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