I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
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29-09-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 03:27 PM)wendigo Wrote:  I wont stop you.

You couldn't if you tried.

Quote:Tell me what my assertions are.

You SAID Christians got their values from the Bible. They don't.

Quote:I'm sure you have more "likes". Good for you. You must be very proud. Go down to the grocery store and trade those likes in for bread and butter.

I don't need them to buy anything.
What, .... you are so fucking stupid, you can't read a profile ?

Quote:Good make up you own mind, Sagan's an idiot. You go girl!

Thanks for confirming, you are what I said you are. A fucking LIAR. I never said he was anything. I said I make up my own mind. And thanks for confirming you are ancient, and full of OLD prejudices, and think you can insult someone by calling them a girl, and came here to PREACH.

Fuck yourself right off.

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29-09-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 03:13 PM)wendigo Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 03:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh, and here we are again.
6 guests. LMAO.

(You fools are paying tuition for that shit ?)

BuckyBall no offense but you're not really contributing to the discussion anymore. I'm not a crhristian. i don't really think anybody here but you thinks that by now. You just reveal your immaturity with each successive assertion that I might be. I get that you despise me. Please just refrain from slinging shit for one minute while we discuss this topic.

I wanted you all to read this quip, because I feel it gets to the heart of what I'm trying to convey. Carl Sagan is one of my personal heros and i 'm simply not able to be so concise and persuasive as he was:

"Sagan's views on theology were shifting and amorphous and are probably closest to agnosticism (although others argue he was an atheist). He was open to the idea there was some form of god, but felt that conventional religious conceptions of God were too anthropomorphized, too small and too local and fell apart when the immenseness of the universe was viewed. In a series of lectures he gave, that have been gathered in a book called The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God, Sagan said:

I think if we ever reach the point where we think we thoroughly understand who we are and where we came from, we will have failed. I think this search does not lead to a complacent satisfaction that we know the answer, not an arrogant sense that the answer is before us and we need do only one more experiment to find it out. It goes with a courageous intent to greet the universe as it really is, not to foist our emotional predispositions on it but to courageously accept what our explorations tell us.


His wife, Ann Druyan said that Carl "took the idea of God so seriously that it had to pass the most rigorous standards of scrutiny."

Put together with his other writings, it's clear he was not saying that lack of belief in a god was stupid. He was saying that claiming to know there is no god is stupid, because we don't know or understand enough about the universe to make such an assertion. As a scientist he would never make such an assertion."


That said, I think Sagan and all of you here (and myself for the most part) can agree that there's probably no God in the traditional sense. However, it is folly to mock sensible conventions (like some morals) of humans just because you feel nobody is "forcing" you to adhere to them. CAVEAT: you might now want to write "we don't do it because it's forced or not forced, we just know what to do". Ok fine, good for you.

I don't disagree with most of this, and my feelings are much the same as Sagan's. However: I'm not aware that anyone in this thread has mocked "morals" as such. To the extent that we're mocking anything, we're mocking the notion that these morals come from the Bible. That's all. The origins and theology of Buddhism are about as different from Christianity as can be, and yet their morality is much the same. Go figure.
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29-09-2017, 03:52 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 03:00 PM)wendigo Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 10:42 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If you were starting this over, what would the claim be?
a) Christians get their morality from the bible
b) Christians find things in the bible that support their morality
c) The bible has some decent moral teachings
d) The bible is a good source for moral teachings
e) Christians, in general, try to be decent people
f) something else...

I also think, as someone else mentioned, that this is a very fair post (finally, thank the flying spaghetti monster). I had to think about it for a second. I'll choose B, C and E, with A of course leading to B based on common sense in our present social-evolutionary environment, as well D, assuming that the A people realize they need to temper it with the knowledge that E should be the prime directive for Christians (which ends up invoking to B and leading to C).

I know that's convoluted, but those were the options given to me in this example.
And what's the difference with good Hindus, pastafarians, wiccans, Buddhists, or otherwise atheist people?

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29-09-2017, 04:02 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 03:39 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 03:13 PM)wendigo Wrote:  BuckyBall no offense but you're not really contributing to the discussion anymore. I'm not a crhristian. i don't really think anybody here but you thinks that by now. You just reveal your immaturity with each successive assertion that I might be. I get that you despise me. Please just refrain from slinging shit for one minute while we discuss this topic.

I wanted you all to read this quip, because I feel it gets to the heart of what I'm trying to convey. Carl Sagan is one of my personal heros and i 'm simply not able to be so concise and persuasive as he was:

"Sagan's views on theology were shifting and amorphous and are probably closest to agnosticism (although others argue he was an atheist). He was open to the idea there was some form of god, but felt that conventional religious conceptions of God were too anthropomorphized, too small and too local and fell apart when the immenseness of the universe was viewed. In a series of lectures he gave, that have been gathered in a book called The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God, Sagan said:

I think if we ever reach the point where we think we thoroughly understand who we are and where we came from, we will have failed. I think this search does not lead to a complacent satisfaction that we know the answer, not an arrogant sense that the answer is before us and we need do only one more experiment to find it out. It goes with a courageous intent to greet the universe as it really is, not to foist our emotional predispositions on it but to courageously accept what our explorations tell us.


His wife, Ann Druyan said that Carl "took the idea of God so seriously that it had to pass the most rigorous standards of scrutiny."

Put together with his other writings, it's clear he was not saying that lack of belief in a god was stupid. He was saying that claiming to know there is no god is stupid, because we don't know or understand enough about the universe to make such an assertion. As a scientist he would never make such an assertion."


That said, I think Sagan and all of you here (and myself for the most part) can agree that there's probably no God in the traditional sense. However, it is folly to mock sensible conventions (like some morals) of humans just because you feel nobody is "forcing" you to adhere to them. CAVEAT: you might now want to write "we don't do it because it's forced or not forced, we just know what to do". Ok fine, good for you.

I don't disagree with most of this, and my feelings are much the same as Sagan's. However: I'm not aware that anyone in this thread has mocked "morals" as such. To the extent that we're mocking anything, we're mocking the notion that these morals come from the Bible. That's all. The origins and theology of Buddhism are about as different from Christianity as can be, and yet their morality is much the same. Go figure.

Yes well I guess early on in this thread I got jumped on by I think maybe 4-5 posters including BuckyBall and they just shat on me because they felt my original post was poorly worded which upon reflection it might well have been. No, nobody at all had mocked morals that's not what I'm saying.
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29-09-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 03:00 PM)wendigo Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 10:42 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If you were starting this over, what would the claim be?
a) Christians get their morality from the bible
b) Christians find things in the bible that support their morality
c) The bible has some decent moral teachings
d) The bible is a good source for moral teachings
e) Christians, in general, try to be decent people
f) something else...

I also think, as someone else mentioned, that this is a very fair post (finally, thank the flying spaghetti monster). I had to think about it for a second. I'll choose B, C and E,

I don't have any significant quibbles with B, C, or E. I think those are generally true statements.

Quote:with A of course leading to B based on common sense in our present social-evolutionary environment,

I disagree with that completely. Christians claim A to be true but as far as I can see it is not. As much as they credit the bible it simply doesn't hold water when they cherry-pick what they like from it. The bible can't be the source when they are deciding what to accept and what to reject from it.

Quote:as well D, assuming that the A people realize they need to temper it with the knowledge that E should be the prime directive for Christians (which ends up invoking to B and leading to C).

And I disagree with that for the same reason. The bible can't be a good source when you need some other standard to evaluate what it offers. As much as people claim the bible is the source of morality, and point to specific passages that support them, the claim is totally refuted by the caveats that you have to compare the bible teachings to what you know to be right or wrong already.

Quote:I know that's convoluted, but those were the options given to me in this example.

That's why F was there... so you could try for a simple, direct statement of what your claim is.

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29-09-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 04:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 03:00 PM)wendigo Wrote:  I also think, as someone else mentioned, that this is a very fair post (finally, thank the flying spaghetti monster). I had to think about it for a second. I'll choose B, C and E,

I don't have any significant quibbles with B, C, or E. I think those are generally true statements.

Quote:with A of course leading to B based on common sense in our present social-evolutionary environment,

I disagree with that completely. Christians claim A to be true but as far as I can see it is not. As much as they credit the bible it simply doesn't hold water when they cherry-pick what they like from it. The bible can't be the source when they are deciding what to accept and what to reject from it.

Quote:as well D, assuming that the A people realize they need to temper it with the knowledge that E should be the prime directive for Christians (which ends up invoking to B and leading to C).

And I disagree with that for the same reason. The bible can't be a good source when you need some other standard to evaluate what it offers. As much as people claim the bible is the source of morality, and point to specific passages that support them, the claim is totally refuted by the caveats that you have to compare the bible teachings to what you know to be right or wrong already.

Quote:I know that's convoluted, but those were the options given to me in this example.

That's why F was there... so you could try for a simple, direct statement of what your claim is.

Unfogged, what I read... I see that we might agree significantly on some things and differ on others... but I gotta crash. My mother-in-law is sleeping upstairs and I have to work tomorrow. I'll do my best after work tomorrow to rationally reply.
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29-09-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 04:02 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Yes well I guess early on in this thread I got jumped on by I think maybe 4-5 posters including BuckyBall and they just shat on me because they felt my original post was poorly worded which upon reflection it might well have been.

Pointing out the fact that you are wrong does not equate to being shat on.

And stop saying it was "poorly worded". You made a claim, multiple times and made several attempts to justify those claims.

You were not "jumped on", you were thoroughly and soundly rebutted.

In the future, if you're going to make such accusations, you can feel free to quote the offending posts. It might give you a bit of credibility.

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29-09-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 04:02 PM)wendigo Wrote:  Yes well I guess early on in this thread I got jumped on by I think maybe 4-5 posters including BuckyBall and they just shat on me because they felt my original post was poorly worded which upon reflection it might well have been. No, nobody at all had mocked morals that's not what I'm saying.

Wrong again. Another presumptuous lie. I never said that.
What your OP said is false, and you presented no evidence that it is true.

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29-09-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(29-09-2017 08:40 AM)wendigo Wrote:  So how does that refute my claim that the morals practiced by most Christians are good?
We have been addressing your statement:

"A major mistake made by (not you) some people here is to assume that christians have either not read the bible, or they follow it blindly and believe it to be literal in every way. I give them a bit more credit. They know the bible is mostly full of shit, but they believe in God."

Which suggest the claims: 1) that Christians have read the Bible; and 2) that, knowing the Bible intimately, they have assessed it and found it to be "mostly full of shit".

Both claims have been show to be at least doubtful, and certainly nothing like universal.



Quote:You say they'd be shocked to read the nasty shit in the Bible and I agree. That's my point, the moral teachings they learn in mass and take with them are usually solid. It doesn't matter if they didn't need the book to get there...they got there.

That is not your original claim. Nor is it the claim made in the thread title or your OP, both of which imply that Christians know the Bible well; have assessed and found it wanting; but have based their morality on the alleged "good parts".

Now you say, "It doesn't matter if they didn't need the book to get there...they got there."

If they "didn't need the book to get there", then what the fuck does that have to do with the Bible allegedly "teaching correct morals"? That WAS your original contention; it's right there in the thread title.

Or are do you now wish to withdraw your assertion that the "Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)"?

I have no problem if you want to do that -- people live and learn -- but if so, to clear up confusion, you might just want to state it outright, in so many words. And you might want to start a new thread, with a different title.

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29-09-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
I didn't mean what I said and people have been mean to me...even Bucky! Weeping

Instead of whining about it...start over and try to say what you mean...even with your mother in law in the house you should be able to express yourself in a way others can understand.

While we are clarifying things....what does adieu mean on your planet?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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