I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
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22-09-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
One of the most annoying aspects of these discussions about Christian morality is the way that Christians insist on taking credit for basic moral precepts that all functional societies share. Obviously these don't come from Christianity. And even for Christian they don't come from the religion. If a person is not Christian they will have a moral compass adequate enough to know that lying, murder, larceny are wrong. Just by being a member of even primitive societies.
It's the extreme lunatic edge of the blather. The old hack about "if there is no God then what stops people from killing and raping?"

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22-09-2017, 09:54 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 08:14 AM)wendigo Wrote:  I think many of you are misunderstanding my point. I'm on about not automatically despising Christians because of what you perceive to be wrong with the Bible or Christianity. The "core" ideas are those practiced by the majority of Christians, good behavior (mostly) regardless of what the Bible tells them they should also do (like a ton of horrendous stuff). You say "well that comes from hundreds of thousands of years of human development, they don't need the bible for that". No crap Sherlock. They're not following the Bible to the letter, just trying to be decent people. Their belief in God doesn't affront me personally. Why should I spit bile every time the word Christian is mentioned? You just want to slag them because you perceive them to be blind idiots. I contend most of them are doing the best they can and are worthy of respect for trying, nothing more. That's something I can't say for a lot of people, christian, atheist, or otherwise.
Awww, you're getting beat up here and don't like it. TFB
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22-09-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 08:14 AM)wendigo Wrote:  I think many of you are misunderstanding my point. I'm on about not automatically despising Christians because of what you perceive to be wrong with the Bible or Christianity. The "core" ideas are those practiced by the majority of Christians, good behavior (mostly) regardless of what the Bible tells them they should also do (like a ton of horrendous stuff). You say "well that comes from hundreds of thousands of years of human development, they don't need the bible for that". No crap Sherlock. They're not following the Bible to the letter, just trying to be decent people. Their belief in God doesn't affront me personally. Why should I spit bile every time the word Christian is mentioned? You just want to slag them because you perceive them to be blind idiots. I contend most of them are doing the best they can and are worthy of respect for trying, nothing more. That's something I can't say for a lot of people, christian, atheist, or otherwise.
We are all figuring it out as we go. In my experience, Christian fundamentalists won't admit to that. They can't, because they have to claim to have correctly interpreted an inerrant and immutable communique from god himself. Here in the USA this is what dominates politically and in many parts of the country, socially. I also know it intimately, having formerly been from that group. So I have to be pretty forceful in my opposition to those folks. Their self-image is quite virtuous and kindly, their actual effect in the world, anything but.

More or less the same critique applies to Islamic fundamentalism except that a greater number of societies where Islam predominates have succumbed to the fundamentalist desire to remake society as a theocracy. That's a cautionary tale for countries where Christianity predominates, to say the least.

Sure, I have a far more sanguine attitude towards liberal theists, they are in large measure not part of this problem.

But at bottom what you are arguing for is what I initially argued for when I was a newly-minted atheist. I argued for a soft, respectful touch, but guess what: religion has had just that for most of history. The deference and respect afforded them is unearned and makes free, rational, fact-based discourse with them taboo, as they can always claim to be "offended" by uncomfortable truths. Nuts to the noise -- I have learned better than to care what they think or feel about those who don't agree with them.
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22-09-2017, 10:15 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2017 10:19 AM by DLJ.)
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
Quote:Core ideas, that is the Sunday School roster. I get your immediate aversion to anything that might be written in the bible, but I don't think all atheists reject all that is good (in a biblical sense) simply to be contrary to what they perceive as an opposing viewpoint. For example, I oppose a lot of the lifestyles and attitudes that are typically attributed to atheists because they make no sense in the long run, evolution-wise, and are destructive to families and well-being.

Would this be the baby eating or the satanic orgies?
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22-09-2017, 10:17 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 08:14 AM)wendigo Wrote:  The "core" ideas are those practiced by the majority of Christians, good behavior (mostly) regardless of what the Bible tells them they should also do (like a ton of horrendous stuff). You say "well that comes from hundreds of thousands of years of human development, they don't need the bible for that". No crap Sherlock. They're not following the Bible to the letter, just trying to be decent people.

The problem is, you're pretty much admitting that the Bible and Christianity aren't needed to achieve these "core values" of Christianity. Those same core values aren't just shared by a majority of Christians, they're shared by a majority of people. You're attributing these good values to Christianity when
  • those values aren't exclusive to Christianity and
  • you've admitted the Bible isn't even needed for this.
I don't understand why you have a thread entitled "I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)..." when you're also saying '"well that comes from hundreds of thousands of years of human development, they don't need the bible for that'. No crap Sherlock. They're not following the Bible to the letter, just trying to be decent people."

Which is it? Does the Bible teach correct morals or is it largely incidental and people are just trying to be nice despite the Bible?
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22-09-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
One can be opposed to the ideas of Christianity without being horrible to Christians.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-09-2017, 10:30 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 08:14 AM)wendigo Wrote:  I think many of you are misunderstanding my point. I'm on about not automatically despising Christians because of what you perceive to be wrong with the Bible or Christianity. The "core" ideas are those practiced by the majority of Christians, good behavior (mostly) regardless of what the Bible tells them they should also do (like a ton of horrendous stuff). You say "well that comes from hundreds of thousands of years of human development, they don't need the bible for that". No crap Sherlock. They're not following the Bible to the letter, just trying to be decent people. Their belief in God doesn't affront me personally. Why should I spit bile every time the word Christian is mentioned? You just want to slag them because you perceive them to be blind idiots. I contend most of them are doing the best they can and are worthy of respect for trying, nothing more. That's something I can't say for a lot of people, christian, atheist, or otherwise.

And you've done a rather horrible job of introducing yourself. For one, you've basically come in and made some seemingly pretty snap judgements, and built a narrative that apparently you think we need "learnin'" about. In other words, you've built up some pretty nice strawmen arguments to tear down. Like....

"Why should I spit bile every time the word Christian is mentioned? You just want to slag them because you perceive them to be blind idiots"

Care to address specifically who the fuck you're talking about, because I don't see people here making threads where they just shit on Christians just because they are Christians.

Word to the wise, if you come in trying to preach to a bunch of people about things most aren't even doing, you're going to get some shade thrown your way, and rightfully so.
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22-09-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
Of course they make sense. Since the Bible and all holy books were written by people, of course they'd put instinctual and biological aspects. That a holy book says not to murder in cold blood doesn't mean it teaches good morality. It shows that a person wrote that part, and like the other great apes, we don't like that.

And the problem with the claim of "core values" is that core values are subjective. What you consider a core value (respect for others, don't steal, etc) isn't what another considers core values. Some consider core values to be to convert gays, kill nonbelievers, and sing gospel in public.

So, no, the Bible does not teach morality. It combines ideas that were already in place, and it is a subjective book.
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22-09-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 08:14 AM)wendigo Wrote:  I'm on about not automatically despising Christians because of what you perceive to be wrong with the Bible or Christianity.

Have you actually had any conversations with Christians?
That is reason enough.
The only thing that gets close to as annoying are Atheists.
Facepalm

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22-09-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)...
(22-09-2017 04:11 AM)wendigo Wrote:  Really? I'm a dishonest person because I think there are some good points made in the bible?

Move the goal posts much ?

"I believe the Bible teaches correct morals (mostly)"
Now it's "some good points".
LOL Facepalm

All cultures develop moral systems that promote survival.
Morality did not originate in any Bible text. The assemblers of the Bible imported already extant cultural values into their texts.

Morality did not originate in religion.
Take an Anthropology course some day.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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