I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
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12-01-2014, 02:06 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014 02:10 PM by Baruch.)
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
THIRD EYE:
Quote:if the Big Bang is true, how can you sit here and say things just started popping up magically.. THERE HAS TO BE independent or dependent variables involed correct me if im wrong.. but it sounds wierd to me.
Quote: The point is the first thing to exists must have had always existed , if not what made it?.... and thats what i would love to know and why im asking this question to hear other thoughts on this.

As for something coming out of nothing - and how universe comes into being:

It could be as per Plato, Aristotle, Spinoza, Bertrand Russell, Paul Davies, objectivists and numerous other thinkers/philosophers/scientists - that the universe eternally exists is some form or other i.e rejecting "Ex Nihilo" creation as illogical & contradictory.

The "big bang theory" only tells us what happens very close to time=0. It does not say what happens at t-0 or if the concept of "before" even makes sense.


The key assumption your making is placing "nothing" as the default and asking "why is there something rather than nothing ?"
What if something always exists and "nothing" is just a relational word to contrast the absence of one thing from something else ? i.e nothing cannot exist in absolute terms - (its irrational) it only exists in relation to something.
Just saying "only nothing exists" is an oxymoron and even then there would be "potential for something" which IS SOMETHING ! (a potential could be compatible with Platonism or other metaphysical systems)
I.e "nothing" presupposes the existence of something.

There are different concepts of "nothing" and even the physicists/cosmologists such as Lawrence Krauss do not mean an absolute ontological nothingness when discussing the "beginning" of the universe that we can detect. Lawrence Krauss description of nothing is definitely an absence of space-time objects you are familiar with but it involves quantum fluctuations which are still a something (just not the visible universe we see)

The reason why atheists reject the concept of God in relation to the above arguments about "something cannot come from nothing" is because the Kalam cosmological argument (which is what your hinting at) has many flaws and fallacies - some of which I mentioned above.
Sticking God at the beginning really doesn't solve anything and just compounds mystery with more mystery + contradictions. Exclamation

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-01-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
THIRD EYE - also consider:

Everything IN THE UNIVERSE has a cause (on the macro scale at least - however quantum indeterminacy complicates this generalization)

However the universe as a whole need not be caused but always exist in some form or other - the current visible universe being a small super dense & hot area 14 billion years ago - this is not a state of nothing (far from it).
There are many scenarios which could mean the universe we see is just one phase of many universes either simultaneously or in the past.
Not knowing the absolute answer to this does not mean we can make stuff up about a God magically popping things into existence !!!.
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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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12-01-2014, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014 02:37 PM by Baruch.)
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
Quote:Among the questions that would still remain is : "why is there both existence and non-existence ALREADY in Reality (of necessity) before *things* can 'come into' existence

This quote above contains the answer - out of necessity existence & non-existence combined ARE reality - basically reality is composed of mathematical patterns which eternally exist.

"Nothing" is just a relational word to the lack of something in relation to another thing. (I,e nothing does not exist independently of "everything else" - that makes no sense and is self refuting.) Nothing presupposes something. Nothing cannot "exist" by itself as existence presupposes something.

As for "things coming into existence" - they are formed & reformed but don't magically "come into existence". Energy cannot be destroyed but changes forms and always exists. The big bang is just one manifestation of this transformation forming the universe we see today. Like I said before - what happens at time = 0 (if that even makes sense) or very close to zero we don't now but technically not relevant because no one says the big bang comes from absolute ontological nothingness including Lawrence Krauss. Lawrence Krauss version of nothing is still a something - just not the space time universe containing objects with mass you are familiar with.
Consider that empty space "looks like nothing" but is actually teaming with fundamental particles.

Recall - even "the potential for a universe" is something ! So it is utter nonsense to say there is nothing at the beginning and magically came something.

God does not solve anything in answering these questions but on the contrary stops further investigation, science and questioning by creating a mystery forbidden to question.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-01-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
[quote='TheThirdEye' pid='462810' dateline='1389302494']
What was the first thing to ever come into existence?.

Well, the Bible says the first thing god made was light...I can settle for that.
even though I don't believe in the Bible.....Sometimes it has answers that can be used in this respect.
Actually, you can give this question to the best people in this field, and get as many different answers.

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12-01-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
Of course I can answer that question.

My answer is "I don't know".

And that answer is yours, too.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-01-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
Nobody on this website, including you! For now, anyway. Big Grin

I WIN! I'll take the adulation and topless people throwing roses at my feet as I get into my Lambo and drive to the edge of the galaxy.

See? This is what happens when I play Deadpool on the computer.

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12-01-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
The answer is potato.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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12-01-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
(12-01-2014 04:19 PM)Logisch Wrote:  The answer is potato.

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-01-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
(12-01-2014 03:28 PM)justauntb Wrote:  [quote='TheThirdEye' pid='462810' dateline='1389302494']

even though I don't believe in the Bible

You can believe in the Bible. It's real. I've held it in my hands and turned its pages. There's a copy of it on my shelf. There is enough empirical evidence to confidently say, "The Bible is a thing that exists."

[messing around with how you phrased that]

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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12-01-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: I bet nobody on this website can answer this question.
(10-01-2014 06:20 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(10-01-2014 04:45 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  sometimes.............it's just a boy and his chicken eh?

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Chickens make fantastic pets.
I had a tame pet chicken, it'd come inside and jump up on my lap while I was watching TV. Much to my mothers disgust. It liked to be petted.

Plus, I'd like to see a dog provide you with regular breakfast.

Chickens are arseholes. Fucking awful creatures.

-- Max

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I am not afraid to go out of it that way.
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