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I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
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31-05-2013, 04:37 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2013 04:53 AM by tear151.)
I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
Hello, I'm a 16 year old from Britain and I have only just really deconverted, as such I'm doing all I can to try and debunk myself and so far I've failed until I came up with an argument in my own head that I cannot debunk, so I need some help :/

Premise A: I read a statistic that 98% of your atoms will change every 7 years so for the sake of the argument lets extend that to 20 years to be conservative here, look this up if you wish and debunk this premise if find a problem with it.

Premise B: The sense of self of a human being is entirely material according to the "materialism"

So it concludes that is your consciousness is entirely physical yet all parts of you which are physical aka. the atoms changes every 20 years how could the consciousness remain the same? It comes down the to the sentiment of a cleaner telling you "I've had this brush for 50 years, it's had 6 new heads and 3 new handles", that obviously isn't the same brush, so if a human tells you I've had 3 new skins a new brain etc... surely that obviously isn't the same person? Surely it would instead be a perfect clone that sort of took over the original person.

The other conclusion is that the soul is real and that our consciousness trancends the physical

Or even that the consciousness is physical but somehow can cling itself to new atoms like a sort of a ethereal membrane?

Now I'm very sorry if this is weirdly written and difficult to understand or even if it looks likes an article on answers in genesis but I tried my best :/ Just think of it as the whole star trek teleportation paradox but more gradual.

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31-05-2013, 05:02 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
I don't get what the vote is for ?

Yes, your atoms are replaced, but your genetic information remains essentially the same. Different atoms are in the same positions. Memory is somewhat dependent on genetics. So your sense of self remains, as the macro-molecules are regenerated, essentially the same, and your memories that are laid down are coded, and remain in place, even if their atomic parts are changed. Make sense ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(biology)
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/2013/0...ic-memory/

(I assume someone is trying to argue that if the atoms change, then the "soul" is responsible for consciousness). ???

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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31-05-2013, 05:08 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't get what the vote is for ?

Yes, your atoms are replaced, but your genetic information remains essentially the same. Different atoms are in the same positions. Memory is somewhat dependent on genetics. So your sense of self remains, as the macro-molecules are regenerated, essentially the same, and your memories that are laid down are coded, and remain in place, even if their atomic parts are changed. Make sense ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(biology)
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/2013/0...ic-memory/

(I assume someone is trying to argue that if the atoms change, then the "soul" is responsible for consciousness). ???

But that doesn't make any sense, for example if I got a computer and every 2 days I swapped one it's components out and shoved in an identical part I just bought from the shop, by the time I was finished would it be the same (as well as if I copied the data from the hard drive), yeah it would function the same, but it's still a different pc.

Or if an old ship that has had routine repairs done on it until all it's planks were different had all its original parts salvaged and rebuilt which one is the original ship.

What your saying is part of my argument here, that you are an exact clone after all these parts change, but are the same conscious being.

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31-05-2013, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2013 05:24 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
Your memories that make you..you, are stored. Yes the parts are different, but the stored memories are the same. Your consciousness is still you. The ship and the computer are not replicating themselves exact parts by copying their oun unique RNA and DNA. You can buy generic parts for your computer. You can't "buy" generic memories. Your analogies are flawed.
The atoms are not the memories. The "parts" you are replacing in your head are not the memories. They make up the memories by the patterns by which they are assembled.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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31-05-2013, 05:24 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your memories that make you..you, are stored. Yes the parts are different, but the stored memories are the same. Your consciousness is still you. The ship and the computer are not replicating themselves exact parts by copying their oun unique RNA and DNA. You can buy generic parts for your computer. You can't "buy" generic memories. Your analogies are flawed.

If I made an exact clone of me does that share my consciousness? That has the same DNA and RNA of me? Don't say "you can't" because thats plain relevant. What you are saying is integral to the argument, if we didn't have the same memories and DNA despite the material changes then I wouldn't be saying this. Rather than debunking my argument you are simply stating a unsaid premise.

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31-05-2013, 05:28 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:24 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(31-05-2013 05:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your memories that make you..you, are stored. Yes the parts are different, but the stored memories are the same. Your consciousness is still you. The ship and the computer are not replicating themselves exact parts by copying their oun unique RNA and DNA. You can buy generic parts for your computer. You can't "buy" generic memories. Your analogies are flawed.

If I made an exact clone of me does that share my consciousness? That has the same DNA and RNA of me? Don't say "you can't" because thats plain relevant. What you are saying is integral to the argument, if we didn't have the same memories and DNA despite the material changes then I wouldn't be saying this. Rather than debunking my argument you are simply stating a unsaid premise.

You have not stated a coherent argument. Why not try again.
You can have an exact genetic clone without the same consciousness, because no matter what you do, Quantum Mechanics will never permit the clone to be "exactly" the same, and even if it were for a tiny instant of time, one instant later, they would have diverged. No system is identical, for many reasons. Have you ever heard of Pauli's exclusion principle ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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31-05-2013, 05:54 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-05-2013 05:24 AM)tear151 Wrote:  If I made an exact clone of me does that share my consciousness? That has the same DNA and RNA of me? Don't say "you can't" because thats plain relevant. What you are saying is integral to the argument, if we didn't have the same memories and DNA despite the material changes then I wouldn't be saying this. Rather than debunking my argument you are simply stating a unsaid premise.

You have not stated a coherent argument. Why not try again.
You can have an exact genetic clone without the same consciousness, because no matter what you do, Quantum Mechanics will never permit the clone to be "exactly" the same, and even if it were for a tiny instant of time, one instant later, they would have diverged. No system is identical, for many reasons. Have you ever heard of Pauli's exclusion principle ?

You're going off topic, my point is if that the consciousness is in the brain and the atoms and makeup of the brain change completely how can consciousness remain the same. My argument here is that that the consciousness is not resulting from your memories and life. If we go by your logic since as a baby you were completely different in your memories and to some extent your genetics (I don't know it's name but it's something like a built in cover that deactivates genes depending on your experiences) you are a different conscious now.

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31-05-2013, 05:54 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-05-2013 05:24 AM)tear151 Wrote:  If I made an exact clone of me does that share my consciousness? That has the same DNA and RNA of me? Don't say "you can't" because thats plain relevant. What you are saying is integral to the argument, if we didn't have the same memories and DNA despite the material changes then I wouldn't be saying this. Rather than debunking my argument you are simply stating a unsaid premise.

You have not stated a coherent argument. Why not try again.
You can have an exact genetic clone without the same consciousness, because no matter what you do, Quantum Mechanics will never permit the clone to be "exactly" the same, and even if it were for a tiny instant of time, one instant later, they would have diverged. No system is identical, for many reasons. Have you ever heard of Pauli's exclusion principle ?

You're going off topic, my point is if that the consciousness is in the brain and the atoms and makeup of the brain change completely how can consciousness remain the same. My argument here is that that the consciousness is not resulting from your memories and life. If we go by your logic since as a baby you were completely different in your memories and to some extent your genetics (I don't know it's name but it's something like a built in cover that deactivates genes depending on your experiences) you are a different conscious now.

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31-05-2013, 06:10 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:54 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(31-05-2013 05:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You have not stated a coherent argument. Why not try again.
You can have an exact genetic clone without the same consciousness, because no matter what you do, Quantum Mechanics will never permit the clone to be "exactly" the same, and even if it were for a tiny instant of time, one instant later, they would have diverged. No system is identical, for many reasons. Have you ever heard of Pauli's exclusion principle ?

You're going off topic, my point is if that the consciousness is in the brain and the atoms and makeup of the brain change completely how can consciousness remain the same. My argument here is that that the consciousness is not resulting from your memories and life. If we go by your logic since as a baby you were completely different in your memories and to some extent your genetics (I don't know it's name but it's something like a built in cover that deactivates genes depending on your experiences) you are a different conscious now.

I already told you. Memory is not dependent on individual atoms. It's dependent on genes. Memory is not laid down in atoms. It's dependent on structures OTHER (larger) than atoms.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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31-05-2013, 06:44 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 05:54 AM)tear151 Wrote:  You're going off topic, my point is if that the consciousness is in the brain and the atoms and makeup of the brain change completely how can consciousness remain the same.

It doesn't.

(31-05-2013 05:54 AM)tear151 Wrote:  My argument here is that that the consciousness is not resulting from your memories and life.

What argument is that?

(31-05-2013 05:54 AM)tear151 Wrote:  If we go by your logic since as a baby you were completely different in your memories and to some extent your genetics (I don't know it's name but it's something like a built in cover that deactivates genes depending on your experiences) you are a different conscious now.

Hi! My name is John Cantor 5312013830. I was never here before, I will never be here again. "John Cantor" is just a convenient label for a collective of emotion/idea/environmental stimulus. These words are not part of my "core identity," they are merely response to stimuli.

The argument of "if not materialism, then soul," is a false dichotomy. We could just be receivers of the Monistic Consciousness as Egor proposes... that doesn't require a soul. In the same manner, we could be plugged into the Matrix and dreaming of Rice Crispies...

Problem is, there is no detectable mechanism to support dualism. This "soul" thing, to me, is just a bunch of ego. Peeps that believe Self is some discrete and concrete structure, but it ain't. It's a gossamer web of patterns of response. If there were some reality to the concept of soul, I should be able to stick a wire in my brain and still be John, but I'm thinking I'd be more like... gone.

And the computer... stick a flash drive into the USB port and image the OS, then toss the box and get a totally brand new one, plug in that flash drive and it's gonna say "papa's compy," or some such shit.

But the big thing is, we're not "individuals" in the sense that we're unique, we're like gems of a thousand facets, where what we see is individuality is merely a probability function of aligning surfaces.

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