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I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
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01-06-2013, 07:29 PM
I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(01-06-2013 06:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-06-2013 06:11 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Link 1 ends with a conclusion summary labeled Wild Guesses. It was also written by someone from the Electrical Engineering Dept.

Link 2 appears to be behind a paywall.

Link 3 doesn't work on my phone, but since it's actually a broadcast referencing research could you not have hunted down that paper and linked it for us?

I truly am interested in hearing about this. It's intriguing. But, instill find it dubious and he materials you have provided so far are not overly compelling.

In any case, I think we helped the OP out regardless. Not sure it matters to him.

Yeah, or maybe you could have looked for it yourself.
http://www.npr.org/2012/10/05/162372195/...our-memory
http://www.med.upenn.edu/apps/faculty/in...275/p94335

Listened to 100% of the NPR segment and read Ted Abel's description of the goals and interests of his lab. None of the material appeared to challenge my current understanding of how this stuff works. It should be noted that I am not a neurophysiologist.

Perhaps our understanding is actually the same and we suffer from a semantic error?

The scientists you cited are talking a out how these epigenetic markers are involved in the regulation of memory storage. I didn't hear them say anything suggesting memory information is actually stored within the structure of DNA itself. Did you? Maybe I missed it?

They seemed to be confirming my, albeit rudimentary, understanding of the formation of memory in the brain. David even described the "constellations of neurons" needed to describe an experience. It sure sounded like they were describing pretty much what I was: genes are involved in the process of recording memory in that they regulate the changes in neural pathways and structures at the time of the formation of a new memory and they are involved in the maintenance of existing neural constellations (old memories). But the information of an actual memory is not stored in the code of the DNA itself. That's my take away. If you feel I'm still mistaken perhaps we should open a new thread and invite more minds?

In any case I appreciate this exercise. Most invigorating!

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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01-06-2013, 08:24 PM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2013 10:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
"His work has shown what genes are changed during the learning process,
how these genes are altered and how the changes contribute to the growth of new connections in the brain.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/health/lif...del-memory

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultrane...emory.html

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/....3359.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2154469/

And here's one for I and I.
http://kidsciencestuff.blogspot.com/2009...-kids.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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02-06-2013, 01:20 AM
I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(01-06-2013 08:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "His work has shown what genes are changed during the learning process,
how these genes are altered and how the changes contribute to the growth of new connections in the brain.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/health/lif...del-memory

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultrane...emory.html

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/....3359.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2154469/

And here's one for I and I.
http://kidsciencestuff.blogspot.com/2009...-kids.html

From link 3:

"The defects in BAF53b mutant mice appeared to derive from alterations in gene expression that produce abnormal postsynaptic components, such as spine structure and function, and ultimately lead to deficits in synaptic plasticity. "

Here you see mention of gene expression responsible for synapse construction. The memory is recorded by strengthening of synapses, not in the genes themselves.

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02-06-2013, 02:02 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(31-05-2013 03:30 PM)tear151 Wrote:  christians usually call me retarded and misguided Undecided, my greatest fear is being 30 and hating myself as I am now.

Many people use words in a careless manner like that. Do you believe you are "retarded" or "misguided"? If not, then don't give their labels any credence.

But since you say you hate yourself, I wonder that you do think yourself "retarded" and "misguided". If so, may I ask why? And if not, my I ask for what other reason you hate yourself?

Either way, I encourage you to not fear fourteen years from now, and instead focus your efforts on now so that you can influence yourself toward your ideals, and one day suddenly find yourself 30 and not hating yourself. Smile
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02-06-2013, 06:26 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2013 08:25 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(02-06-2013 01:20 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(01-06-2013 08:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "His work has shown what genes are changed during the learning process,
how these genes are altered and how the changes contribute to the growth of new connections in the brain.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/health/lif...del-memory

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultrane...emory.html

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/....3359.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2154469/

And here's one for I and I.
http://kidsciencestuff.blogspot.com/2009...-kids.html

From link 3:

"The defects in BAF53b mutant mice appeared to derive from alterations in gene expression that produce abnormal postsynaptic components, such as spine structure and function, and ultimately lead to deficits in synaptic plasticity. "

Here you see mention of gene expression responsible for synapse construction. The memory is recorded by strengthening of synapses, not in the genes themselves.

Tell that to the Nobel committee. See link #1. Complain to them.
You said you were no Neuro-physiologist.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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03-06-2013, 06:52 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2013 07:16 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
Quote:Overall, these various results suggest that DNA methylation is dynamically regulated in the adult CNS in response to experience, and that this cellular mechanism is a crucial step in memory formation. It is important to note that these findings suggest that memory formation involves both increased methylation at memory suppressor genes and decreased methylation at memory promoting genes.

Quote: However, they refuted the potential role of these mechanisms as a long-term molecular storage device, thus revealing that DNA de/methylation is much more dynamic process than previously thought (at least in the hippocampus).

~from DNA methylation and Memory Formation

So the DNA gets methylated/demethylated in complex, dynamic process just beginning to be understood. IWO, Bucky's essentially correct.

Another...

Quote:As we mentioned earlier, a number of intracellular
events must occur in the hippocampus in order for
memories to consolidate. This begins with NMDA receptor
activation and the eventual translocation of ERK to the nucleus where it has a variety of effects, including activation
of the transcription factors CREB and ets-like gene-1
(Elk-1) (Impey et al., 1998; Roberson et al., 1999). This
leads to alterations in gene transcription that are critical
for long-term memory formation.

~from Covalent Modification of DNA
Regulates Memory Formation (PDF)


But before you get a fat head, Bucky... well, more of a fat head...

(31-05-2013 10:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Are YOU a different you, every three days ? No.

...while

Quote:So as I tell my friends, if you remember anything about this conversation, you will have a different brain than you started out with before the conversation.

~from A Nobel Prize with the help of sea slugs

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03-06-2013, 07:07 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(01-06-2013 08:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "His work has shown what genes are changed during the learning process,
how these genes are altered and how the changes contribute to the growth of new connections in the brain.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/health/lif...del-memory

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultrane...emory.html

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/....3359.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2154469/

And here's one for I and I.
http://kidsciencestuff.blogspot.com/2009...-kids.html

Regardless, none of this affects germ-cell DNA, so none of this heritable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-06-2013, 07:10 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(03-06-2013 07:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-06-2013 08:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "His work has shown what genes are changed during the learning process,
how these genes are altered and how the changes contribute to the growth of new connections in the brain.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/health/lif...del-memory

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultrane...emory.html

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/....3359.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2154469/

And here's one for I and I.
http://kidsciencestuff.blogspot.com/2009...-kids.html

Regardless, none of this affects germ-cell DNA, so none of this heritable.

Pedantic. Dodgy

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03-06-2013, 07:12 AM
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
(03-06-2013 07:10 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(03-06-2013 07:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  Regardless, none of this affects germ-cell DNA, so none of this heritable.

Pedantic. Dodgy

Informative. Smartass

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-06-2013, 07:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2013 08:36 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: I came up a theological/philosophical argument and I want it debunked.
MOAR!

Quote:Most genes are tightly packaged by a chromatin structure – chromatin being what compacts DNA so that it fits inside the nucleus of a cell. That compaction mechanism represses gene expression. Baf53b, and the nBAF complex, physically open the chromatin structure so specific genes required for long-term memory formation are turned on. The mutated forms of Baf53b did not allow for this necessary gene expression.

“The results from this study reveal a powerful new mechanism that increases our understanding of how genes are regulated for memory formation,” Prof Wood said.

~from http://www.sci-news.com/biology/article00969.html

Tried to find a full version of the research paper, but it's from March.... prolly too soon for freebies. Big Grin

And!

http://sweattlab.neurobiology.uab.edu/Fr...0paper.pdf

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