I come across this all the time
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27-01-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: I come across this all the time
You just have to believe...




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27-01-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: I come across this all the time
It's usually Christians who say this. I ask them if I believed and God revealed himself to me, how would I know it was really him and not just my imagination? They usually reply "you would just know". So I then reply, "But then it would be knowledge and you would no longer have faith, but God requires you to have faith to go to heaven". Then come the mental gymnastics...

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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27-01-2017, 11:18 AM
RE: I come across this all the time
(27-01-2017 10:47 AM)mordant Wrote:  The part you're missing is that belief is seen as bestowed grace or even divine revelation.
Ha, good point! I might try "sorry, I can't believe until God grants me that grace" next time. Laugh out load

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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27-01-2017, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 01:14 PM by unfogged.)
RE: I come across this all the time
So if you are rational and need evidence to believe you get nothing but if you are openly gullible then god will give you the evidence. Why would anybody want to de[a]l with anybody that plays stupid games like that?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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27-01-2017, 12:00 PM
RE: I come across this all the time
(27-01-2017 11:45 AM)unfogged Wrote:  So if you are rational and need evidence to believe you get nothing but if you are openly gullible then god will give you the evidence. Why would anybody want to del with anybody that plays stupid games like that?
Why indeed.

All I can say in defense of my former self is that it's unexamined operant conditioning from childhood. Years of training to not think and just accept.

People who lead sufficiently lucky existences and/or are willing to do a lot of rationalizing can go a long way like this. Then there's a subset of people who can do neither, are inwardly tormented about it, but live a lie out of fear of how god and/or family would respond to such "open rebellion". For them it is barely contained doubt that they durst not admit even to themselves.

Then there are people like me who find the pain of living like that exceeds the pain of not living like that. And once you cross that particular Rubicon, it's like the light bulbs go on all over the place. Having had the Christian conversion experience at not-quite-six years old, and the atheist deconversion experience, I can testify that for me at least, the latter was far more dramatic and meaningful. Ironically, far more like how Bunyan describes Christian's burden falling off him at the cross.

What you do to get out of religious faith is you pull down a wall of compartmentalization (denial, really, but I think it's helpful to see it as compartmentalization). It is endlessly hilarious to me that all the Christian metaphors apply to this: burden falling off, scales falling from eyes, light dawning, etc. etc.
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27-01-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: I come across this all the time
(27-01-2017 10:04 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I read posts by religious nuts sometimes and this pops up so often.
"God will reveal himself to you only if you believe in him." Or something to that effect.

How do you respond to this stupidity? This sounds like it's another way around the inability to provide any concrete evidence of a god so you just gotta believe anyway.

Drives me nuts.

Yep, it's just another ad hoc rationalization. This contradicts what other Christians say about faith being rational. So much for that. Theists speak out of both sides of their mouth about faith. I think the Bible has something not too kind to say about those who do that, does it not?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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27-01-2017, 12:20 PM
RE: I come across this all the time
I'd be tempted to nod with pseudo-sagacity and say "Ah. So first I have to imag -- I mean, believe, and once I can clearly imagine this god -- sorry, believe in him -- then he'll actually do something?"

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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27-01-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: I come across this all the time
I usually start off with something else that is paranormal like "What about ghost hunters?" They go looking for them in scary old houses and abandoned mental institutions and they always find something, an electric reading, a "sound" that slowed down sounds like a voice saying something like "Get out", orbs of light, etc. Anything they find can be explained rationally and it's totally ordinary but to them, it's fucking ghosts!

The human mind is that powerful, it can lead you to believe anything if you want it enough and theists find proof of God all the time and it can be anything naturally occurring or just a lucky happenstance.

I also bring up how when I first realized I was atheist at 12 and my dad asked me to read the bible and I did, front to back. I was in a pretty open state and unsure if God was real or not so if he was and I had to go looking, that would've been the perfect time for him to show himself but he never did so I guess he's either not real or he's a jerk who decided to just let me go to Hell.

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28-01-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: I come across this all the time
No kidding? I'll have to try that. You a video of your experience of it? I might need some pointers from your video of how to do it.

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28-01-2017, 01:58 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2017 02:01 AM by Ace.)
RE: I come across this all the time
so he only reveals himself if you already believe he already exists ?

why ? thats such an arbitrary constraint
according to the apologists they claim that god can do anything and affect our lives in anyway he wants yet is totally incapable of showing himself unless you already believe he exists...

lets be honest here, this excuse is used only because they know that they have no way to prove god exists so they use this to try to avoid the burden of proof altogether
they use convoluted arguments and word games because they know that they can't rove any of their claims but they have decided in advance never to admit it
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