I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
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17-08-2017, 06:16 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2017 07:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
Every flood has a silt layer. There is not a shred of evidence for any world-wide silt layer. The flood myth was taken from the 11th Tablet of the Epic of Gilgamesh, (Babylonian mythology)
http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf (Chapter 5) ... the Judean priests copied it in Babylon, during the Exile, where they had access to it). (The Torah of Moses was never once in history mentioned before the Prophet Ezra brought it back from exile, by permission of the Persian emperor, and introduced the texts (as described in the Book of Nehemiah).
... in which many of the details are suspiciously similar. Goodwithoutgod did the best blow up of the flood I've ever seen : (if one insists on taking ancient mythological stories literally).
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674871

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18-08-2017, 01:02 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
Since it's a special magical flood, God could make it leave whatever evidence he wanted, including making it look like there was no flood at all. He could also make it look like the whole story is nonsense and that it cannot have happened, in any respect.

I feel there is a simpler answer for the lack of evidence though...

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18-08-2017, 06:14 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(14-08-2017 01:02 AM)Yarnie2015 Wrote:  I once asked him how the animals survived after coming off the ark. His answer was Noah had enough herbivores for the carnivores to survive until the wild population of both were stable.

... And the herbivores survived on seaweed and algae...

Huh ooookay

In the really real world, you need a whole bunch of herbivores to support a single carnivore. This is both because the carnivore has to keep eating more often than the herbivores can breed and reach maturity, and also because of the whole inefficiency in energy as you work your way further up the food chain. So, if God wanted the wolves eating deer, he would have put something like sixty deer on the ark for two wolves. Of course, that's not what the Bible says.

I don't understand why the Christians don't just fall back on the obvious answer of magic. I mean, yeah, it's justifying make-believe with more make-believe, but at least it solves problems that a middle school student could find at a cursory glance. Then again, maybe they have thought about it and they realize that magic opens up the problem of 'why did God kill all the children?'.
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21-08-2017, 06:19 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(17-08-2017 06:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Every flood has a silt layer. There is not a shred of evidence for any world-wide silt layer.

Local floods have silt layers. The world wide flood was more than just a flood. It was part of a geological upheaval that completely changed the geography of the world. It is unlikely that it would display the same appearance as a local flood.

Someone asked how Noah fed the carnivores. It is most likely that Noah didn't take any carnivores on the ark. All animals were originally vegetarian but some became carnivores after sin entered the world.

Another question was about the effects of mixing salt and fresh water. The salt level of the ocean is increasing due to erosion of salt into it. It was much less salty in Noah's time so salt wouldn't have been a problem.

All of the objections raised assume that the world before the flood was just the same as it is today. In fact it was very different.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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21-08-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  It was part of a geological upheaval that completely changed the geography of the world.

Then it should be easy for you to present evindence, from all over the world.

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21-08-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Local floods have silt layers. The world wide flood was more than just a flood. It was part of a geological upheaval that completely changed the geography of the world. It is unlikely that it would display the same appearance as a local flood.

Hmmmmm...............I'm thinking geology is not a subject you've studied. You base this assertion on what evidence?

(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Someone asked how Noah fed the carnivores. It is most likely that Noah didn't take any carnivores on the ark. All animals were originally vegetarian but some became carnivores after sin entered the world.

Ah................super-fast evolution. Interesting. If the carnivores evolved at that super-fast rate for a period of time after the flood, what mechanism has caused those rapid evolutionary changes to slow down dramatically? Oh and why did that slow-down coincide with the development of the science of taxonomy?

(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Another question was about the effects of mixing salt and fresh water. The salt level of the ocean is increasing due to erosion of salt into it. It was much less salty in Noah's time so salt wouldn't have been a problem.

Another assertion. Please provide the science to support this. References and citations would be good..........................but I won't hold my breath.

(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  All of the objections raised assume that the world before the flood was just the same as it is today. In fact it was very different.

Depends how long you want to go back. I'm guessing circa 6,000 years is your limit.

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21-08-2017, 06:55 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 06:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Every flood has a silt layer. There is not a shred of evidence for any world-wide silt layer.

Local floods have silt layers. The world wide flood was more than just a flood. It was part of a geological upheaval that completely changed the geography of the world. It is unlikely that it would display the same appearance as a local flood.

Someone asked how Noah fed the carnivores. It is most likely that Noah didn't take any carnivores on the ark. All animals were originally vegetarian but some became carnivores after sin entered the world.

Another question was about the effects of mixing salt and fresh water. The salt level of the ocean is increasing due to erosion of salt into it. It was much less salty in Noah's time so salt wouldn't have been a problem.

All of the objections raised assume that the world before the flood was just the same as it is today. In fact it was very different.
Oh, I get it. It was magic.

It is most likely that Noah didn't take any carnivores on the ark because neither Noah nor an ark existed.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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21-08-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  All animals were originally vegetarian but some became carnivores after sin entered the world.

Even if this were not a completely unsupported assertion it is not even consistent with the Bible story or (some) Christian doctrine.

First: sin existed before Noah according to Genesis 6:5-7 it was the reason for Yahweh's mass slaughter.

Second: if eating meat is a sin, where does that put communion?

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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21-08-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(14-08-2017 01:02 AM)Yarnie2015 Wrote:  I once asked him how the animals survived after coming off the ark. His answer was Noah had enough herbivores for the carnivores to survive until the wild population of both were stable.

... And the herbivores survived on seaweed and algae...

Huh ooookay

There is so much wrong with that mythology, both scientifically and morally.

How exactly did Noah and his family handle dangerous animals like hippos and gators without getting attacked? How exactly did kangaroos cross an ocean without help? How is it when salt water and fresh water mixed, which would have to happen if the flood really did happen, how did the salt water life and fresh water life survive, because there is very little overlap in those respective species.

Then there are the moral objections.

Ok, so this knid, loving super hero has the power to correct humans in a non lethal manor, but goes out of his way to torture dissenters, even if their only crime is picking the wrong club, even if they are innocent women, babies, and children and men. He has to carpet bomb the entire population with a very physically painful way of dying. Filling the lungs up with water is a slow painful way of dying. And this would be the entire population of the planet which would have been billions.

And after that act of mass genocide, is left with incest to repopulate the planet.

It is a good thing this myth never happened, it is sad that people today still buy it and call it moral.

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22-08-2017, 09:20 AM
RE: I debate with a Christian Coworker and his answers are at least odd
(21-08-2017 06:30 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  It was part of a geological upheaval that completely changed the geography of the world.

Then it should be easy for you to present evindence, from all over the world.

There is evidence all over the world; the fossils are the result of the flood.

(21-08-2017 09:14 AM)Norm Deplume Wrote:  
(21-08-2017 06:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  All animals were originally vegetarian but some became carnivores after sin entered the world.

Even if this were not a completely unsupported assertion it is not even consistent with the Bible story or (some) Christian doctrine.

First: sin existed before Noah according to Genesis 6:5-7 it was the reason for Yahweh's mass slaughter.

Sin entered the world when Adam sin. It took some time for the results of that sin to take effect.

Quote:Second: if eating meat is a sin, where does that put communion?

Eating meat isn't a sin. In Genesis 9:3 God told Noah, "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."

How does this affect communion? Only bread and wine are consumed. There is no meat involved.

(21-08-2017 09:23 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  How exactly did Noah and his family handle dangerous animals like hippos and gators without getting attacked? How exactly did kangaroos cross an ocean without help? How is it when salt water and fresh water mixed, which would have to happen if the flood really did happen, how did the salt water life and fresh water life survive, because there is very little overlap in those respective species.

He obviously took baby animals, which were too small to be dangerous. He would have had to do this in the case of the dinosaurs; he probably did the same with the other animals.

We also don't know whether the sea was salty then.


Quote:Ok, so this knid, loving super hero has the power to correct humans in a non lethal manor, but goes out of his way to torture dissenters, even if their only crime is picking the wrong club, even if they are innocent women, babies, and children and men. He has to carpet bomb the entire population with a very physically painful way of dying. Filling the lungs up with water is a slow painful way of dying. And this would be the entire population of the planet which would have been billions.

This just shows how God regards sin.

Quote:And after that act of mass genocide, is left with incest to repopulate the planet.

Incest is wrong because we possess defective genes. Noah lived much closer to the creation so in his time there would have been fewer defects, so incest wasn't a problem.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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