I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
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19-01-2016, 05:41 AM
I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(18-01-2016 03:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 03:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's all just a matter of knowing their stories, how they dealt with their own predicaments, of their reliance on their faith.

No, it isn't. Neither you nor they know that there isn't something better.

Well, when you can provide something better you let me know. Perhaps we can formulate it into some pamphlet and hand it out among the destitute as gospel.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-01-2016, 07:09 AM
RE: I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(19-01-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 03:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it isn't. Neither you nor they know that there isn't something better.

Well, when you can provide something better you let me know.

You are so indoctrinated that you can't even conceive of there being something better.

Quote:Perhaps we can formulate it into some pamphlet and hand it out among the destitute as gospel.

Already provided: reality. Reality is all the gospel that's needed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2016, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 07:31 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(19-01-2016 07:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are so indoctrinated that you can't even conceive of there being something better.

Apparently you can't either, since you have yet to actually offer something better. Indoctrination has little to do with this, even Marx acknowledge religion as "the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."

Quote:Already provided: reality. Reality is all the gospel that's needed.

Reality for the Mother of Emmett Till is the mauled and dead body of her child, not a source of comfort but despair. The sort of hope that illuminates and helps them cope with their lives, is the sort that transcends any sort of observable reality. You can call it delusional if you want.

If you think that facts are the better alternative here, then it's you who believe in fairy tales.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-01-2016, 07:29 AM
RE: I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(19-01-2016 07:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 07:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are so indoctrinated that you can't even conceive of there being something better.

Apparently you can't either, since you have yet to actually offer something better.

Quote:Already provided: reality. Reality is all the gospel that's needed.

Reality for the Mother of Emmett Till is the mauled and dead body of her child, not a source of comfort but despair. The sort of hope that illuminates and helps them cope with their lives, is the sort that transcends any sort of observable reality. You can call it delusional if you want.

If you think that facts are the better alternative here, then it's you who believe in fairy tales.

Reality is never a fairy tale. The comfort comes from acceptance.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(19-01-2016 07:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Reality is never a fairy tale. The comfort comes from acceptance.


Acceptance and comfort are not interwoven concepts. Acceptance can just as easily be a source of despair and hopelessness. Accepting that your life is unreasonably shitty, is unlikely to be source of comfort, it might even drive you to put a bullet through your head.

Acceptance is what the men who killed Emmett Till wanted of his mother, and those who wanted her to be silent, but acceptance is not what they received.

Quote:Reality is never a fairy tale. The comfort comes from acceptance.

No, a belief that reality offers comfort, and hope to the hopeless, is a fairy tale.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-01-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(19-01-2016 07:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 07:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Reality is never a fairy tale. The comfort comes from acceptance.


Acceptance and comfort are not interwoven concepts.

Yes, they are. Just as forgiveness and comfort are interwoven.

Quote:Acceptance can just as easily be a source of despair and hopelessness. Accepting that your life is unreasonably shitty, is unlikely to be source of comfort, it might even drive you to put a bullet through your head.

You are confusing recognition with acceptance.

Quote:Acceptance is what the men who killed Emmett Till wanted of his mother, and those who wanted her to be silent, but acceptance is not what they received.

You are confusing imposing with accepting.

Quote:
Quote:Reality is never a fairy tale. The comfort comes from acceptance.

No, a belief that reality offers comfort, and hope to the hopeless, is a fairy tale.

So you say, but you have yet to provide an argument.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2016, 09:22 PM
RE: I don't think religion is effective at helping people cope with death
(19-01-2016 07:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 07:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Reality is never a fairy tale. The comfort comes from acceptance.
Acceptance and comfort are not interwoven concepts. Acceptance can just as easily be a source of despair and hopelessness. Accepting that your life is unreasonably shitty, is unlikely to be source of comfort, it might even drive you to put a bullet through your head.
No, a belief that reality offers comfort, and hope to the hopeless, is a fairy tale.

Ummm.... putting a bullet through your head as a response to hopelessness is the opposite of acceptance.

Read Viktor Frankl's account of his time in the German concentration camps. That might clarify this idea for you a bit.
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