I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
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05-05-2016, 05:58 PM
I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
Can someone solve this riddle for me? Why do so many 'moderate' Christians pretend like scientific inaccuracies in the Bible are a problem for them that needs to be resolved when virtually every single one of them has already accepted the premise that there is a being so powerful it can literally do anything you can imagine. Take, for example, the part in the Gospel of Matthews where it says that an earthquake occurred right after Jesus died and that a whole bunch of dead saints were resurrected who then walked around in Jerusalem for a while (Matthew 27:51-53). This story is obviously ridiculous on its face for any non-religious person, but why is it that people who believe in an entity that created the whole universe have a problem accepting it as literal fact? Why do they try to argue that it was allegorical when their God is allegedly perfectly capable of both accomplishing this feat and making sure that nobody but Matthew would ever write about this massive resurrection of the dead? I've seen those attempts over and over again with various passages in the Bible, most notably the story about Adam and Eve. Just... why do they bother? It doesn't make them look one bit more reasonable than their fundamentalist counterparts in my eyes. No

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05-05-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(05-05-2016 05:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can someone solve this riddle for me? Why do so many 'moderate' Christians pretend like scientific inaccuracies in the Bible are a problem for them that needs to be resolved when virtually every single one of them has already accepted the premise that there is a being so powerful it can literally do anything you can imagine. Take, for example, the part in the Gospel of Matthews where it says that an earthquake occurred right after Jesus died and that a whole bunch of dead saints were resurrected who then walked around in Jerusalem for a while (Matthew 27:51-53). This story is obviously ridiculous on its face for any non-religious person, but why is it that people who believe in an entity that created the whole universe have a problem accepting it as literal fact? Why do they try to argue that it was allegorical when their God is allegedly perfectly capable of both accomplishing this feat and making sure that nobody but Matthew would ever write about this massive resurrection of the dead? I've seen those attempts over and over again with various passages in the Bible, most notably the story about Adam and Eve. Just... why do they bother? It doesn't make them look one bit more reasonable than their fundamentalist counterparts in my eyes. No

I have known a few people in science who were also christians. They just compartmentalized to an incredible degree. I have a friend who is a PhD biologist hand with a straight face, said that there was a very logical explanation for the snake in the Garden of Eden. A professor of biology, one who teaches the fucking subject, stayed out loud that there was a logical reason for a talking snake. Of course in the real world he knows snakes can't talk and would probably laugh at someone who claimed they could. However in christianland, the rules of logic and reason do not apply. Ever.

As for the rest of the populace, they have little to no concept of what science is, does, or what it's purpose is. As long as something supports their delusion, it is true no matter how stupid, illogical, ignorant, or demonstrably false it may be.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-05-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
You make a good point and honestly many moderate/liberal Christians I've come across are more than happy to accept science but they also just want to believe there's a benevolent being in the sky that loves them and has a place for them to go after death where they can hang out with all the deceased loved ones they ever had including their pets. I would want the same of course, but if it was The Shire in Middle Earth, otherwise why bother?

There's nothing wrong with thinking this way if that's all it is. Once you bring in the horrendously unscientific and laughable Bible stories into the mix and then drop the whole Jesus died for us..and then came back..and also Hell! It's just too much but spirituality and a God belief isn't so bad, it's dumb in many ways but if you just want to believe and still be logical and use reason and you don't care about pushing your beliefs into our laws then I don't see the problem with it.

Unfortunately religion is like a bowl of fish hooks, once you grab one good thing, all the dumb and evil shit comes right along with it. You may as well just be a deist or pantheist if you have to believe in something.

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05-05-2016, 06:41 PM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(05-05-2016 06:25 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  As for the rest of the populace, they have little to no concept of what science is, does, or what it's purpose is. As long as something supports their delusion, it is true no matter how stupid, illogical, ignorant, or demonstrably false it may be.

I get very annoyed with a Christian I'm debating acts likes science is weak and anyone who uses it as a tool to explain the nature of our world is stupid, just go read the Bible! If I'm online I have to remind them that scientific breakthroughs have helped us develop computers and the internet which they are using to dismiss science, but most importantly a lot of us wouldn't be alive without medical science. I was born premature for example and had to be placed in an incubator for the first few weeks of my life. I would have surely died if it wasn't for science and if God had his way I wouldn't be here, childbirth used to be a very fatal event for many people before science caught up.

I usually ask "Are you gonna tell me that science means nothing to you, only faith in God matters and allow yourself or someone you care about to die rather than use the spoils of science to heal yourself and others?" If the answer is yes, then congratulations you realize how important science is! If the answer is no, you are a terrible person.

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05-05-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(05-05-2016 05:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can someone solve this riddle for me? Why do so many 'moderate' Christians pretend like scientific inaccuracies in the Bible are a problem for them that needs to be resolved when virtually every single one of them has already accepted the premise that there is a being so powerful it can literally do anything you can imagine.

Because science and reason work, and you can show that they work. They put men on the moon, eradicated smallpox, split the atom and cracked the code that life itslef is written in. For over a century science has been delivering on religion's promises.

In that light, "I believe in my religion." is merely a statement of faith. "Science shows that my religion is right!" is a statement of fact. If you can reconcile the inconsistencies, which you can't, but that doesn't stop them trying to bend reason through a curly straw.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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06-05-2016, 06:11 AM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(05-05-2016 06:41 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I usually ask "Are you gonna tell me that science means nothing to you, only faith in God matters and allow yourself or someone you care about to die rather than use the spoils of science to heal yourself and others?" If the answer is yes, then congratulations you realize how important science is! If the answer is no, you are a terrible person.
Jehova's Witnesses are probably the worst of the bunch when it comes to that. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a news story about children who died because their parents didn't allow the doctors to give them blood transfusions on religious grounds.

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06-05-2016, 06:24 AM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(06-05-2016 06:11 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 06:41 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I usually ask "Are you gonna tell me that science means nothing to you, only faith in God matters and allow yourself or someone you care about to die rather than use the spoils of science to heal yourself and others?" If the answer is yes, then congratulations you realize how important science is! If the answer is no, you are a terrible person.
Jehova's Witnesses are probably the worst of the bunch when it comes to that. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a news story about children who died because their parents didn't allow the doctors to give them blood transfusions on religious grounds.


Remember: Child abuse and neglect is illegal, unless someone else's imaginary friend tells you to do it. Dodgy

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06-05-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(05-05-2016 05:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can someone solve this riddle for me? Why do so many 'moderate' Christians pretend like scientific inaccuracies in the Bible are a problem for them that needs to be resolved when virtually every single one of them has already accepted the premise that there is a being so powerful it can literally do anything you can imagine. Take, for example, the part in the Gospel of Matthews where it says that an earthquake occurred right after Jesus died and that a whole bunch of dead saints were resurrected who then walked around in Jerusalem for a while (Matthew 27:51-53). This story is obviously ridiculous on its face for any non-religious person, but why is it that people who believe in an entity that created the whole universe have a problem accepting it as literal fact? Why do they try to argue that it was allegorical when their God is allegedly perfectly capable of both accomplishing this feat and making sure that nobody but Matthew would ever write about this massive resurrection of the dead? I've seen those attempts over and over again with various passages in the Bible, most notably the story about Adam and Eve. Just... why do they bother? It doesn't make them look one bit more reasonable than their fundamentalist counterparts in my eyes. No

I think Paleophyte explained it pretty well. People know science works. I remember a time when I still believed and wondered how I'd handle a person telling me they saw an angel. I believed in angels, and yet I knew that most people who talked about such things seemed kinda crazy. It's like I knew "it doesn't work like that", but I had no idea how to figure out what side of the line any given claim should fall on.


Speaking for myself, when I was in college, I wanted my world to make sense, and I had lots of cognitive dissonance. I really liked science, so I didn't want to just reject it because the Bible said something contrary. At the same time, I had a really hard time writing off what the Bible said, so I had to get really creative in how I'd parse these things. Honestly, I did a lot of this through very deliberate ignorance. I found, the less I dug around and asked questions, the less bad I felt.

For example: I tried the whole day-age bullshit back then, to explain "scientifically" how YHWH could have created the world as explained in Genesis 1. I held this belief for ten years... and during that time, I never took the time to just reread the chapter and make an obvious note that everything is out of order. Within the last two or three months before I admitted I no longer believed, I was talking about this, and an atheist cousin made note that the days were all out of order. I defeatedly admitted that I knew this, but I just didn't have an answer.
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06-05-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(05-05-2016 05:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can someone solve this riddle for me? Why do so many 'moderate' Christians pretend like scientific inaccuracies in the Bible are a problem for them that needs to be resolved when virtually every single one of them has already accepted the premise that there is a being so powerful it can literally do anything you can imagine. Take, for example, the part in the Gospel of Matthews where it says that an earthquake occurred right after Jesus died and that a whole bunch of dead saints were resurrected who then walked around in Jerusalem for a while (Matthew 27:51-53). This story is obviously ridiculous on its face for any non-religious person, but why is it that people who believe in an entity that created the whole universe have a problem accepting it as literal fact? Why do they try to argue that it was allegorical when their God is allegedly perfectly capable of both accomplishing this feat and making sure that nobody but Matthew would ever write about this massive resurrection of the dead? I've seen those attempts over and over again with various passages in the Bible, most notably the story about Adam and Eve. Just... why do they bother? It doesn't make them look one bit more reasonable than their fundamentalist counterparts in my eyes. No

Your thinking is too organized, it requires disorganized thinking, not thinking about how the individual parts fit together, but rather that miracles can happen and just take their pastor's or an apologist's word for it and leave it at that.

If you start to take any belief system apart and try to make sense out of it systematically, it falls apart. So the only way to retain faith is to not engage in a systematic analysis of it's parts.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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06-05-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: I don't understand Christian views on science as it relates to the Bible
(06-05-2016 09:23 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 05:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Can someone solve this riddle for me? Why do so many 'moderate' Christians pretend like scientific inaccuracies in the Bible are a problem for them that needs to be resolved when virtually every single one of them has already accepted the premise that there is a being so powerful it can literally do anything you can imagine. Take, for example, the part in the Gospel of Matthews where it says that an earthquake occurred right after Jesus died and that a whole bunch of dead saints were resurrected who then walked around in Jerusalem for a while (Matthew 27:51-53). This story is obviously ridiculous on its face for any non-religious person, but why is it that people who believe in an entity that created the whole universe have a problem accepting it as literal fact? Why do they try to argue that it was allegorical when their God is allegedly perfectly capable of both accomplishing this feat and making sure that nobody but Matthew would ever write about this massive resurrection of the dead? I've seen those attempts over and over again with various passages in the Bible, most notably the story about Adam and Eve. Just... why do they bother? It doesn't make them look one bit more reasonable than their fundamentalist counterparts in my eyes. No

I think Paleophyte explained it pretty well. People know science works. I remember a time when I still believed and wondered how I'd handle a person telling me they saw an angel. I believed in angels, and yet I knew that most people who talked about such things seemed kinda crazy. It's like I knew "it doesn't work like that", but I had no idea how to figure out what side of the line any given claim should fall on.


Speaking for myself, when I was in college, I wanted my world to make sense, and I had lots of cognitive dissonance. I really liked science, so I didn't want to just reject it because the Bible said something contrary. At the same time, I had a really hard time writing off what the Bible said, so I had to get really creative in how I'd parse these things. Honestly, I did a lot of this through very deliberate ignorance. I found, the less I dug around and asked questions, the less bad I felt.

For example: I tried the whole day-age bullshit back then, to explain "scientifically" how YHWH could have created the world as explained in Genesis 1. I held this belief for ten years... and during that time, I never took the time to just reread the chapter and make an obvious note that everything is out of order. Within the last two or three months before I admitted I no longer believed, I was talking about this, and an atheist cousin made note that the days were all out of order. I defeatedly admitted that I knew this, but I just didn't have an answer.
That discomfort is exactly what I don't understand. The God you believed in back then was able to do things that defy science, wasn't he? So then why would the mention of something in the Bible that defies science be a discomforting thing? Wouldn't it just confirm that God can do anything? I would imagine that it would be weirder for the Bible to be completely in agreement with science because it would suggest that there are no records of God ever doing anything that can't be explained with science, nothing that defies our fallible human understanding. It would make God a rather unremarkable being.

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