I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
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15-03-2012, 12:12 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
If you deny free will, the "reward and punishment" part becomes nonsensical, since you are not in control of your actions.

Let's say I lift a child and throw him straight into my new TV. The TV breaks and I punish the child for breaking my new TV.
Sense = 0.
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15-03-2012, 12:14 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(15-03-2012 11:30 AM)kineo Wrote:  I wouldn't recognize it when I was a Christian- but now that I am no longer tied to any theology it only makes sense to me that an all-knowing and all-powerful god removes the ability for true free will. It would be an illusion at best.

Free Will is an illusion.

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15-03-2012, 01:27 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(15-03-2012 12:14 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 11:30 AM)kineo Wrote:  I wouldn't recognize it when I was a Christian- but now that I am no longer tied to any theology it only makes sense to me that an all-knowing and all-powerful god removes the ability for true free will. It would be an illusion at best.

Free Will is an illusion.

In a way, I agree with you. But I find it difficult to say with a definitive claim that free will is an illusion, especially when the theories so far are not definitive in themselves. But they are fascinating and I think true. Also, I think it completely depends on your philosophical definition of free will.

In the case of this thread, I was speaking entirely of a free will from a theological standpoint where free will is held to be the pinnacle of purpose for non-Calvinists. Free will is absolutely required in order to make a choice of faith for those that do not believe in determinism. If there is an all-powerful all-knowing god then free will cannot exist, because creation is known in its entirety by the creator before it is created, and no choice can be made that is in conflict with the will of that god because nothing can impinge on the will of such an all-powerful and all-knowing god. If this god does not use its power to change something "against" its will, then its intention is to allow it to happen and it was never against its will in the first place.

I hope that made sense, but probably not knowing how I write. It's easier to think about this sort of thing when you're not theologically anchored, even if I'm not correct.
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15-03-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(14-03-2012 02:45 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Before meeting KC I didn't really know anything about Calvanism. Since I've thought about it I wonder why any Christian wouldn't be one. Or any theist for that matter, not just Christians. If God is all knowing then he certainly knows your entire life. He knows when you will be born, what school you will go to, what job you will have, and when you will die. Since this is the case then obviously there can be no free will. Without free will there is nothing you can do to ensure your salvation. God knew before you were born whether or not you were going to heaven.

Omnipotence = No Free Will = Calvanism

I honestly can't understand why any christian would want to be christian. This is the first thing that popped in my head as soon as I read your topic. I believe this is a more accurate way to phrase it. As far as the free will thing, pfft whatever that is Tongue

Everyday I go to school and see so many tortured and depressed people. When you speak with them they turn on that "I'm so happy" image. I could never imagine a reason to believe in such things at all. Even when I believed in a deity and called myself a Baptist, I didn't follow that crap. It affected my life only to the degree that more people wanted to be my friend because I believed in something.

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15-03-2012, 05:40 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(15-03-2012 12:12 PM)Dust Wrote:  If you deny free will, the "reward and punishment" part becomes nonsensical, since you are not in control of your actions.

Let's say I lift a child and throw him straight into my new TV. The TV breaks and I punish the child for breaking my new TV.
Sense = 0.

The difficult part is coming up with some sort of higher transcendental order whereby, we are not simply automatons, but evolving spirituallt somehow....Cool
(15-03-2012 05:40 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:12 PM)Dust Wrote:  If you deny free will, the "reward and punishment" part becomes nonsensical, since you are not in control of your actions.

Let's say I lift a child and throw him straight into my new TV. The TV breaks and I punish the child for breaking my new TV.
Sense = 0.

The difficult part is coming up with some sort of higher transcendental order whereby, we are not simply automatons, but evolving spiritually somehow....Cool
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16-03-2012, 06:36 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(15-03-2012 12:12 PM)Dust Wrote:  If you deny free will, the "reward and punishment" part becomes nonsensical, since you are not in control of your actions.

Let's say I lift a child and throw him straight into my new TV. The TV breaks and I punish the child for breaking my new TV.
Sense = 0.

Free will is the Christian response to "the problem of evil". You've put your finger on it --- a world without free will is a world where all evil can be blamed on God. So this free will argument was a way to pawn the blame off and back onto us.

If a rapist harms a child and an omniscient and omnipotent God does not step in to protect that innocent child, doesn't that make him partially to blame? It's like when a crowd witnesses a person getting beaten up and they just watch instead of intervening... except that One Person in the crowd sees every beating, has the power to stop the beatings without effort and without danger to His person, and would be admired by other onlookers for demonstrating that power (while simultaneously wanting to be admired and worshiped by those other onlookers). So why doesn't He? The argument goes that He wants people to have the freedom to do good or evil without being forced --- and who gives a fuck for the victim, right? Who cares if the victim is forced to do something they don't want, just as long as the evil person has the freedom to do what they want?

That's the free will argument... and it pisses me off so much, that someone could worship a God that is unloving towards the people hurt by evil.

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17-03-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(14-03-2012 02:45 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Before meeting KC I didn't really know anything about Calvanism. Since I've thought about it I wonder why any Christian wouldn't be one. Or any theist for that matter, not just Christians. If God is all knowing then he certainly knows your entire life. He knows when you will be born, what school you will go to, what job you will have, and when you will die. Since this is the case then obviously there can be no free will. Without free will there is nothing you can do to ensure your salvation. God knew before you were born whether or not you were going to heaven.

Omnipotence = No Free Will = Calvanism

That's only true if you define God that way.

As for me, I don't understand anyone who is a Calvinist.

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17-03-2012, 12:16 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
I can refine that further Chas.

I don't understand anyone.

I am only capable of understanding reactions, or emotions, or ideas. The people as a whole... fucked if I know. Bunch of lunatics.

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18-03-2012, 10:29 AM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
(16-03-2012 06:36 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Free will is the Christian response to "the problem of evil". You've put your finger on it --- a world without free will is a world where all evil can be blamed on God. So this free will argument was a way to pawn the blame off and back onto us.

If a rapist harms a child and an omniscient and omnipotent God does not step in to protect that innocent child, doesn't that make him partially to blame? It's like when a crowd witnesses a person getting beaten up and they just watch instead of intervening... except that One Person in the crowd sees every beating, has the power to stop the beatings without effort and without danger to His person, and would be admired by other onlookers for demonstrating that power (while simultaneously wanting to be admired and worshiped by those other onlookers). So why doesn't He? The argument goes that He wants people to have the freedom to do good or evil without being forced --- and who gives a fuck for the victim, right? Who cares if the victim is forced to do something they don't want, just as long as the evil person has the freedom to do what they want?

That's the free will argument... and it pisses me off so much, that someone could worship a God that is unloving towards the people hurt by evil.

If you remove the "free will" part God is doing the rapin'.
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18-03-2012, 05:02 PM
RE: I don't understand Christians who aren't Calvanists.
Because removing free will makes god look like a massive dick because all the bad things in the world are due to his will and they'd still have to call him 'good'.

I've had more discussions about free will and having a timeless god with omniscience with Muslims than Christians. Both make paradoxical statements. It's astonishing.

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