I don't understand.
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12-11-2011, 05:23 AM
RE: I don't understand.
The most convincing reason I gave up on religion and why I still believe in no God to this day is because one can study and see why and when mankind developed the ideas of the specific Gods that are worshiped today or in the past. It is known Gods were used to fill in gaps of knowledge and to give good feeling and gatherings around for humans.

If something bigger than that really does exist and does have some power of creating us from what we are and may be the reason from where we came from... Why call it God at all if it is accepting, if not proud, of giving us minds that find flaws within it's main structure.

In the very same way a Machiavellian leader is not worth following since they're intentionally deceiving people for their own good.
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12-11-2011, 07:47 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2011 07:51 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: I don't understand.
(11-11-2011 11:47 PM)PeterK Wrote:  All in all, the ultimate question for us philosophers is "where did we come from"?
Are you sure? Because this may not be the ultimate question of all philosophers. The modern ones know we come from a long line of apes, and have no problem with this: are ready to move on to Question 2... some may even be on Question 42.

Quote: What are your most convincing reasons that God does NOT exist?

I'm not personally hung up on proof. For me, it's all about plausibility. I haven't found any of the god stories persuasive enough to base my life principles on.

Quote: Who saids that God shares any similarities with us about kindness, love? Why can't he let starving children be born, starve, and die in third world countries(i think all this is horrible) or allow people who have cancer to die? All i care is if there is a force yet known to us that spawned the physical world.

If it's not a "force" you can relate to, it makes little difference whether you call it The Big Bang or The Original Onanistic Orgasm.
In either case - So what?

Quote: If you conclude that the bible is false, you must conclude that the people who wrote the bible is wrong. But God didnt write the bible. We did.

Not me! I'd have paid more attention to ethical consistency, plot continuity and character development. Some other guys wrote it. And, yes, they were wrong.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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12-11-2011, 08:37 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 12:48 AM)PeterK Wrote:  This is also what i believe. Since we are pretty much on the same page about the origins of the universe, that part is pretty much solved.

I believe that even if God does not exist. There is a place for deism because yes.. it does control the masses, yes it is and most likely wrong. But i have two reasons why it should exist.

1. Though the ideal world should be full of secular love, it is not. Some people share a connection with "God" to give themselves a sense of peace. If one is a murderer, and can repent and be forgiven he may change. If he cannot repent, he is doomed and so there is one less incentive for him not to continue. [illogical but this is a trend at least 1/800 people have as psychopaths]. Some people are manically depressed, deism provides a spiritual venting that produces a measurable/physical benefit. Deism has been an outlet for many unsettling hearts.

2. It produces a sense of morality. It defines for those of us who don't understand ethics what a person should be. If it was to be proven today that there is no hell. The world would go into a guiltless, self-indulging frenzy. This is even understandable because it is biologically advantageous to do what is best for you and the people around you and to compete with those who invade your niche regardless of ethics. This does not further our society, it will cripple it. Scientists even are very ambitious, I know that if the difference between getting a nobel prize and coming second place is simply sabotaging my opponents fragile research that there may be a chance i might if God will not judge me and i was very religious.
Here's a guy I wanna beat with a stick. Big Grin

No, and... No.

Hell doesn't exist. I know this for a fact. Assholes needing hell suffer from rectal-cranial inversion. I'm a perfectly good asshole without hell. Big Grin

Nah, man; it's simple math. There's no "God" because there's no need for "God." Religion is control structure and death worship. In life, evolution has provided for the control structure of morality - yeah, it comes from evolution and nowhere else - which is how an individual controls himself/herself. Ethical standard is a form of agenda derived from individual moral perception. In the past, some of these perceptions have been in error. This too is evolution - we learn from the past to make a better future. We do not need a "guiding hand" in this.

You want God? Then let us return to the Lares and Penates. I commit no sin in loving my Gwynnies; there is no sin in setting a personal, higher standard. It would be a sin to say all must love my Gwynnies. Simple math. Wink

...and I'm a psychopath - clinically diagnosed. Wanna make something of it? Big Grin

(12-11-2011 07:47 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Are you sure? Because this may not be the ultimate question of all philosophers. The modern ones know we come from a long line of apes, and have no problem with this: are ready to move on to Question 2... some may even be on Question 42.
Or chapter 42 of the tao te ching... Big Grin

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12-11-2011, 08:45 AM
 
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 02:18 AM)PeterK Wrote:  
(12-11-2011 01:53 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Look for better role models.

Why is that?

It all boils down to the definition of 'definition'.

For me 'god' is as undefined a word as I have ever heard (could debate about 'Tops' -- 'Spot' spelled backward Big Grin ).

That is why I never get involved in theological debates. Without satisfactorily defining the basic concept, you are building a castle in the air (and the church collects the rent).

Many theists tried to define it for me, except their idea of a 'definition' had nothing to do with reality. Huh
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12-11-2011, 09:02 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 08:45 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  That is why I never get involved in theological debates.

I got no problem telling people their theology. Big Grin

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12-11-2011, 10:42 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 08:45 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  Many theists tried to define it for me, except their idea of a 'definition' had nothing to do with reality. Huh

I know what you mean here - I think for most Theists it usually comes down to whatever definition works at the moment. People can go happily along with their cherished 'Bible as history' notions, but when pressed will retreat to the old "well God is love... you believe in love don't you?" type arguments without giving a second thought to the inconsistency.
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12-11-2011, 10:54 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 08:37 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  There's no "God" because there's no need for "God." Religion is control structure and death worship. In life, evolution has provided for the control structure of morality - yeah, it comes from evolution and nowhere else - which is how an individual controls himself/herself. Ethical standard is a form of agenda derived from individual moral perception. In the past, some of these perceptions have been in error. This too is evolution - we learn from the past to make a better future. We do not need a "guiding hand" in this.

You want God? There is no sin in setting a personal, higher standard.

These are probably the most succinct descriptions of this topic I've seen in a while. Thank you HoC! Smile

Now, getting people to do away with or at least downsize ego, seems to be the obstacle that prevents people from letting go of "God" and/religion.
Ego distorts all view and provides the greatest delusion... it feeds and feeds off the God/religion fallacy.

Undecided Maybe people just don't get zeroing out.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-11-2011, 11:31 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 10:54 AM)kim Wrote:  Undecided Maybe people just don't get zeroing out.

Can you please clarify what "zeroing out" is? Sorry I guess I'm just a noob here. Never heard that terminology before.
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12-11-2011, 11:33 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(12-11-2011 10:54 AM)kim Wrote:  
(12-11-2011 08:37 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  There's no "God" because there's no need for "God." Religion is control structure and death worship. In life, evolution has provided for the control structure of morality - yeah, it comes from evolution and nowhere else - which is how an individual controls himself/herself. Ethical standard is a form of agenda derived from individual moral perception. In the past, some of these perceptions have been in error. This too is evolution - we learn from the past to make a better future. We do not need a "guiding hand" in this.

You want God? There is no sin in setting a personal, higher standard.

These are probably the most succinct descriptions of this topic I've seen in a while. Thank you HoC! Smile

Now, getting people to do away with or at least downsize ego, seems to be the obstacle that prevents people from letting go of "God" and/religion.
Ego distorts all view and provides the greatest delusion... it feeds and feeds off the God/religion fallacy.

Undecided Maybe people just don't get zeroing out.
I noticed the succinct editing of the Gwynnies. Tongue

(I disapprove but I can't say I disapprove. Big Grin )

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12-11-2011, 11:43 AM
RE: I don't understand.
(11-11-2011 11:47 PM)PeterK Wrote:  All in all, the ultimate question for us philosophers is "where did we come from"?
Well, when a mommy and a daddy have coitus... No, seriously, reproduction with variation. That's where we come from. Now, where did life come from? Scientists are still working on that, and there's no problem saying, "I don't know" until we do have an answer.

Quote:It doesn't matter who we are or who we call ourselves, this is all that matters. Even though the probability that the creationists are right are slim, the possibility still exists.
Which kind of creationists? If you're talking about the bible-believing creationists, then, no, they're just wrong. We know that the Earth is greater than 6-10 000 years old, we know that humans didn't just pop into existence along with the rest of the current species, etc. If you're talking about the IDiots, then, no, they're also wrong because an "Intelligent" being wouldn't have made all the blunders that evolution has made through trial-and-error. If you're talking about those who believe that a deity created the first life and then left it alone, well, yes, they could be right, but there's no reason to assume that they are because we simply don't have enough information yet.

Quote:What are your most convincing reasons that God does NOT exist? Without a shadow of a doubt what do people believe that convinces them this?
Which god?

Quote:Who saids that God shares any similarities with us about kindness, love? Why can't he let starving children be born, starve, and die in third world countries(i think all this is horrible) or allow people who have cancer to die? All i care is if there is a force yet known to us that spawned the physical world. If you conclude that the bible is false, you must conclude that the people who wrote the bible is wrong. But God didnt write the bible. We did.
Well, theists (usually Christians) say that their god is love. The burden of proof lies with them to explain how suffering exists in the world if their god really is omni-benevolent (and omnipotent, omniscient, etc.) as they claim it is.

The thing about the Bible is that it is a book, full of stories written by humans. There are some truths, some fantasies, some poetry, some laws, etc. contained within it. There is really nothing about it that makes it any different from The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Iliad, Metamorphoses, the Dhammapada, the Quran, etc.

As for whether or not there is some "force" that spawned the physical world, so what? As of yet, we have no way of knowing whether this is true or not (much less whether this force is anthropomorphic). So why not reserve judgment until we do know?

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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