I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
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23-11-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
I completely disagree. I don't care if I'm 40 or 60 or 90 years old, if I misunderstand something, if I'm clueless about something, if I'm deluded about something, if I'm totally wrong about something, I want people to set me straight. At any age.

I don't want to live a lie. I don't want to be a fool. I don't want to be gullible. I don't want to be duped. I don't want to be used and abused by professional liars who want my money and my time and my respect in return for lying to me.

I don't want that at any age.

Even worse, if I were being lied to, being duped, being made a fool of, and then the people I love and trust the most, my family and my dearest friends, knowingly take the side of the liars who are duping me even though they know it's all a lie, that would be the most terrible, tragic thing I could imagine.

If I found out that all this shit was going on AND my trusted family was deliberately in on the duplicity, that would be what would break my heart - not the duplicity, but knowing that people I love and trust were guilty accomplices.

Of course, if I never found out I could die the clueless fool, duped by family and friends and professional liars and never the wiser about it. Ignorance is bliss.

But I would not want that for myself. Not even for a minute.

Maybe your grandmother might feel the same way, if someone would just man up and talk to her about it.

Or are you too worried about your own guilt, your own misgivings about hurting her - maybe your willingness to be complicit in perpetuating her god delusion is not about avoiding hurting her but about avoiding hurting you?

Of course, all that aside, there is no magic atheism bullet to deconvert your grandmother or anyone else, so it's probably moot - you could talk to her all day long and she's not likely to give up Jesus after her long life of dependence on him.

Nevertheless, most people value honesty and truth and honor over lies and deception, and your grandmother is probably one of them.

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23-11-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 01:04 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(23-11-2012 07:21 AM)Dom Wrote:  I feel the same about my aunt, who is religious to the point of total delusion. She is 83 and frail and it helps her cope.

Ato, if you try to take that away from her, I'm going to have to take steps to shut you up.

Deconversion at such an age and fragile time of life equals killing someone. Their entire frame of reference would be gone and there would be no reason to live another day. Their whole life would have been wrong.

This would be a very cruel thing to do. I wouldn't stand for it.

Now, if you are thinking of your 40 year old mother, that's different. But to do it to someone who is nearing the end of their life is just cold.
So converting somebody at an old age EQUALS death? In what way would that be true for nearly all old people? You are assuming that almost all old people think religion as everything in there life, which is wholely untrue seeing as there is still love and family. Was their love wrong, Dom? Was their choice to marry wrong? What about having a child?Was that wrong? No, Dom, their whole life wouldn't be wrong as religion may INFLUENCE, but rarely does it ever become the persons life.

Let's take your post and dissect it for realz Dom.

I can only talk to my mother about God, becoming an atheist or antitheist or agnostic or apathetic to it all is HER choice. It is not my CHOICE to force her into something like that.

If I talk to somebody about Murder, and they commit a murder... Is it my fault that they committed a terrible and disgusting crime, just because I talked to them? Nope, because if so movies and other shit would get in trouble.

Are you really that pessimistic about old people that you think that they can't function without religion?

Now, I am curious, what type of steps are you going to take to stop me from talking about God to my mother, or even any family member at all?
Your mom isn't statistically going to die of old age anytime soon. It would be a great story if your mom could become a free-thinker and turn her life around.

I'm talking personally about my mother who has spent so much of her painful life being comforted by the
thought of Jesus being real to her. Let's say she gives up that thought and has 1 year to live. What a terrible year that would be to realize all that shit believed in before was worthless and the pain she felt was meaningless, and perhaps even treated more aggressively if there had been less prayer and more doctor visits. I was devastated to realize in my 40's that much of what I've believed and done based upon those beliefs was wasted time. Sure, we can learn a little from everything, blah, blah, blah, but yeah. I'll have time to get over that and hopefully look to a future that is more meaningful that is not based on false hope. But if all you've ever had is false hope and that is taken away in your last days? That feels cruel to me. Especially when it's not like she's around people who are hoodwinking her to believe these things. Everyone she's around (except me) thinks God will reward her patience through trial and tribulation. I think it sounds nice to say I'd rather die with the truth than with a false hope. But I think sometimes the false hope is the better choice and truth be damned.

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23-11-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 01:42 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  I completely disagree. I don't care if I'm 40 or 60 or 90 years old, if I misunderstand something, if I'm clueless about something, if I'm deluded about something, if I'm totally wrong about something, I want people to set me straight. At any age.

I don't want to live a lie. I don't want to be a fool. I don't want to be gullible. I don't want to be duped. I don't want to be used and abused by professional liars who want my money and my time and my respect in return for lying to me.

I don't want that at any age.

Even worse, if I were being lied to, being duped, being made a fool of, and then the people I love and trust the most, my family and my dearest friends, knowingly take the side of the liars who are duping me even though they know it's all a lie, that would be the most terrible, tragic thing I could imagine.

If I found out that all this shit was going on AND my trusted family was deliberately in on the duplicity, that would be what would break my heart - not the duplicity, but knowing that people I love and trust were guilty accomplices.

Of course, if I never found out I could die the clueless fool, duped by family and friends and professional liars and never the wiser about it. Ignorance is bliss.

But I would not want that for myself. Not even for a minute.

Maybe your grandmother might feel the same way, if someone would just man up and talk to her about it.

Or are you too worried about your own guilt, your own misgivings about hurting her - maybe your willingness to be complicit in perpetuating her god delusion is not about avoiding hurting her but about avoiding hurting you?

Of course, all that aside, there is no magic atheism bullet to deconvert your grandmother or anyone else, so it's probably moot - you could talk to her all day long and she's not likely to give up Jesus after her long life of dependence on him.

Nevertheless, most people value honesty and truth and honor over lies and deception, and your grandmother is probably one of them.
I don't have a grandmother.
Nor do I harbor any guilt and misgivings and blah blah psycho bullshit. It's just an opinion that I think my mom's faith is better left intact at this stage of her life.

Nor is my mom you. The woman who has openly said, she values faith more than knowledge. It's a pretty naive way to live. It's not the way I want to live. You've made it perfectly clear that it's not the way you want to live. But it's the way she wants to live. Can I read my mom's mind? No. Do I know the sorts of ways that she thinks? Yes. Would it destroy her remaining days of life? Most certainly.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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23-11-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 01:46 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(23-11-2012 01:04 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  So converting somebody at an old age EQUALS death? In what way would that be true for nearly all old people? You are assuming that almost all old people think religion as everything in there life, which is wholely untrue seeing as there is still love and family. Was their love wrong, Dom? Was their choice to marry wrong? What about having a child?Was that wrong? No, Dom, their whole life wouldn't be wrong as religion may INFLUENCE, but rarely does it ever become the persons life.

Let's take your post and dissect it for realz Dom.

I can only talk to my mother about God, becoming an atheist or antitheist or agnostic or apathetic to it all is HER choice. It is not my CHOICE to force her into something like that.

If I talk to somebody about Murder, and they commit a murder... Is it my fault that they committed a terrible and disgusting crime, just because I talked to them? Nope, because if so movies and other shit would get in trouble.

Are you really that pessimistic about old people that you think that they can't function without religion?

Now, I am curious, what type of steps are you going to take to stop me from talking about God to my mother, or even any family member at all?
Your mom isn't statistically going to die of old age anytime soon. It would be a great story if your mom could become a free-thinker and turn her life around.

I'm talking personally about my mother who has spent so much of her painful life being comforted by the
thought of Jesus being real to her. Let's say she gives up that thought and has 1 year to live. What a terrible year that would be to realize all that shit believed in before was worthless and the pain she felt was meaningless, and perhaps even treated more aggressively if there had been less prayer and more doctor visits. I was devastated to realize in my 40's that much of what I've believed and done based upon those beliefs was wasted time. Sure, we can learn a little from everything, blah, blah, blah, but yeah. I'll have time to get over that and hopefully look to a future that is more meaningful that is not based on false hope. But if all you've ever had is false hope and that is taken away in your last days? That feels cruel to me. Especially when it's not like she's around people who are hoodwinking her to believe these things. Everyone she's around (except me) thinks God will reward her patience through trial and tribulation. I think it sounds nice to say I'd rather die with the truth than with a false hope. But I think sometimes the false hope is the better choice and truth be damned.
Do you really think that her life would be meaningless without religion? What about you, Erxy? Without religion does that make your interactions with her meaningless?

Erxomai, she will not be rewarded in an afterlife and she will not see God, she will not know anything from the point she passes. This is a comfort vs Truth situation, and for me I would choose truth ten times out of ten. Comfort is nice, but the truth can help you accurately measure and deal with the present situation in a meaningful way.

Example:

My dog is laying on the street, bleeding to death.

For comfort, I pray for his/her safety, and because I believe in the power of prayer I don't do anything else.

Now that I am an atheist, I fucking call the vets and get him some form of ACTUAL help.

I get that you want your mom to be happy, but being happy in a lie is worse than being miserable in the truth.

At least that's how it is for me.

I get what you want to do, but I value the truth more than I value lies, even if they make people comfortable.

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23-11-2012, 01:56 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
What must also be considered is the type of "false hope" in which she's living.

If everyone in the room except me knew that my partner is cheating on me, I'd be absolutely devestated if I found out. And even if I never found out, it would still mean that everyone in the room was a piece of shit for keeping that from me.

If I'm about to die of old age and everyone in the room lacks the sense of divine hope that I do, why the fuck would I want them to take my last security blanket away from me? It'd be like yanking a teddy bear away from an otherwise terrified child and justifying it by saying "The bear doesn't really help her. Why would we want her to live a lie?"
Because it's not an act of betrayal to allow her to live that lie, such as would be the case in my first example. Lies of omittion are not always a betrayal of trust or love. Sometimes, they are acts of kindness. It depends entirely upon the context in which the truth is being withheld.

What's more, we never posited that letting go of God is a step closer to any "truth". All we know - at least when it comes to Jesus specifically - is that a step away from belief is a step away from falsehood. That doesn't mean it's a step closer to truth. If a little morphine makes the descent more pleasant, why not let her have it? It's not as though things are going to be any better if she lets go of the false hope. She's not going to recover from old age if only she'd let go of the empty promise of eternity in Heaven. She'll still die, but this time, she'll do it knowing that she's facing a void, rather than pretty fields of roses and Jesus on a mountaintop.

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23-11-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 01:56 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  What must also be considered is the type of "false hope" in which she's living.
If everyone in the room except me knew that my partner is cheating on me, I'd be absolutely devestated if I found out. And even if I never found out, it would still mean that everyone in the room was a piece of shit for keeping that from me.
If I'm about to die of old age and everyone in the room lacks the sense of divine hope that I do, why the fuck would I want them to take my last security blanket away from me? It'd be like yanking a teddy bear away from an otherwise terrified child and justifying it by saying "The bear doesn't really help her. Why would we want her to live a lie?"
Because it's not an act of betrayal to allow her to live that lie, such as would be the case in my first example. Lies of omittion are not always a betrayal of trust or love. Sometimes, they are acts of kindness. It depends entirely upon the context in which the truth is being withheld.
What's more, we never posited that letting go of God is a step closer to any "truth". All we know - at least when it comes to Jesus specifically - is that a step away from belief is a step away from falsehood. That doesn't mean it's a step closer to truth. If a little morphine makes the descent more pleasant, why not let her have it?
The problem is, Morphine actually works. Religion is a placebo. Well, first, it would be a step closer in (what I believe) a right direction as she will no longer see her suffering as a test of faith, but see it as it actually is, a random( or sometimes not so random) occurrence. The teddy bear or security blanket is designed specifically to HELP the child with comfort, religion is designed to give comfort by believing in actrocious LIES.

If a middle aged man thought a teddy bear was the key to care bear heaven and that all non teddy bear lovers are going to care bear hell I would shut that belief down as well, seeing as it condemns people of which no condemnation is justified. The teddy bear and security blanket do not come with a pack of lies wrapped in a gift wrap of false hope.

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23-11-2012, 02:15 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
There's a lot of projection going on here.

Let's get this straight.

Erxomai's mom is not YOU.

Erxomai's mom is still NOT YOU.

You may be more comfortable not believing in god, but that personal truth is not for everyone.
Some people place the promise of an afterlife above many other considerations. So to those people taking that away from them (which in all likelihood you couldn't do no matter what anyways so why cause shit?) would make their lives meaningless (to them).

The attitude of "well I would like it better so everyone would" is fucking retarded. What emotional dictatorship do you think the world is? Some people can't even function without jesus right there beside them. Fictional or not. I know of a few.

Personally I think it's better to leave well enough alone. If someone is old they've likely already made up their mind. Why stir shit up, especially when as an atheist you probably don't believe in an afterlife yourself so all you'd be doing is filling their last bit of life with uneasy questions and worry. Without the promise of an afterlife a good chunk of people would have a much scarier ride to their final moments.

I wasn't born into religion like some of the people on this forum, but from what I understand, it's a pretty shaky transition from belief to disbelief. Takes a long time to get your head right, and if you don't have that time your last days might be even more unpleasant.

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23-11-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
When I was your age, I would have said the same thing. I don't know what ages the other people are who would pull the rug out from under the feet of a person who is facing death soon, but I assume you are all younger and thinking of your own, younger moms who really can survive having her life purpose destroyed. They are young enough to rebuild, they have a tomorrow.

For someone in great pain and facing their exit soon, you do not want to be told all your life was a lie and you are stupid for living it. It will surely destroy you.

Have a bit of empathy here. Idealism is great, and youth is the time to have it, that is what makes the world go round and it is what makes society evolve. I was plenty blunt and outspoken about the things I believed need to change, and many of them did already. I hope to see the rest change before I die.

But I have learned to choose my battles, and the self imposed restrictions are not because of limitations of any kind, but because of empathy.

It is too much to ask of you to identify with someone like Erxe's mom or my aunt. You haven't got the same feelings, so you cannot empathize - yet.

I know I sound like a stupid old woman to you saying that, and perhaps it upsets you to hear. But perhaps that there is a definite age divide in this thread will serve to show that I am right.

If you can't put yourself in the shoes of an OLD person, don't assume you know what they feel. You know what you think they should feel, and you know what you THINK you will feel, but you can't feel it - yet.

Deconverting Erx's mom or my aunt would be incredibly cruel. It would likely kill them. Their entire life's frame of reference would be gone, everyone they loved would have been wrong, their only friends left alive would all be fools, and their entire life would be wasted. Because there is no time to start over, no time to heal from such a blow. Only depression until death.

Think twice before you do such an incredibly cruel thing to someone facing the end of their life. Keep your idealism where it belongs - shaping the future for you and your children to come. Hopefully when you are Erx's age, that situation won't exist anymore because people like his mom and my aunt will long be extinct.

Your goal should be to help make religion go extinct, not to turn the world of dying people upside down.

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23-11-2012, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2012 02:35 PM by Atothetheist.)
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 02:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  When I was your age, I would have said the same thing. I don't know what ages the other people are who would pull the rug out from under the feet of a person who is facing death soon, but I assume you are all younger and thinking of your own, younger moms who really can survive having her life purpose destroyed. They are young enough to rebuild, they have a tomorrow.

For someone in great pain and facing their exit soon, you do not want to be told all your life was a lie and you are stupid for living it. It will surely destroy you.

Have a bit of empathy here. Idealism is great, and youth is the time to have it, that is what makes the world go round and it is what makes society evolve. I was plenty blunt and outspoken about the things I believed need to change, and many of them did already. I hope to see the rest change before I die.

But I have learned to choose my battles, and the self imposed restrictions are not because of limitations of any kind, but because of empathy.

It is too much to ask of you to identify with someone like Erxe's mom or my aunt. You haven't got the same feelings, so you cannot empathize - yet.

I know I sound like a stupid old woman to you saying that, and perhaps it upsets you to hear. But perhaps that there is a definite age divide in this thread will serve to show that I am right.

If you can't put yourself in the shoes of an OLD person, don't assume you know what they feel. You know what you think they should feel, and you know what you THINK you will feel, but you can't feel it - yet.

Deconverting Erx's mom or my aunt would be incredibly cruel. It would likely kill them. Their entire life's frame of reference would be gone, everyone they loved would have been wrong, their only friends left alive would all be fools, and their entire life would be wasted. Because there is no time to start over, no time to heal from such a blow. Only depression until death.

Think twice before you do such an incredibly cruel thing to someone facing the end of their life. Keep your idealism where it belongs - shaping the future for you and your children to come. Hopefully when you are Erx's age, that situation won't exist anymore because people like his mom and my aunt will long be extinct.

Your goal should be to help make religion go extinct, not to turn the world of dying people upside down.
Not once did I EVER say that I KNEW what Erxy's mom is going through. Not once did I ever say I felt the same way. Perhaps I am young and stupid, but I know how religion can kill, I have caused the death of a kid who believed my words of false hope.

How about you stop assuming I assuming I know how they feel? How about you stop assuming that you know me just because you are older than me and I am younger than you. How about you stop making this a young vs old? Why not give me the respect (all though it is to your discretion of whether or not I deserve it) I think I deserve and stop thinking that it is some childish young mindset I am in?

Yes, I understand what you guys are saying, and yes I know that your choices are EMOTIONALLY driven and you think that letting them believe in a lie at old age is good because they have nothing else to live for, but I am a different person than you, with different opinions and differen't views on what is right and what is wrong.

I believe that it is a sign of respect to talk to your parents truthfully about any issue, and that INCLUDES God. It is still their decision to DECONVERT.

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23-11-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 02:15 PM)lucradis Wrote:  There's a lot of projection going on here.

Let's get this straight.

Erxomai's mom is not YOU.

Erxomai's mom is still NOT YOU.

You may be more comfortable not believing in god, but that personal truth is not for everyone.
Some people place the promise of an afterlife above many other considerations. So to those people taking that away from them (which in all likelihood you couldn't do no matter what anyways so why cause shit?) would make their lives meaningless (to them).

The attitude of "well I would like it better so everyone would" is fucking retarded. What emotional dictatorship do you think the world is? Some people can't even function without jesus right there beside them. Fictional or not. I know of a few.

Personally I think it's better to leave well enough alone. If someone is old they've likely already made up their mind. Why stir shit up, especially when as an atheist you probably don't believe in an afterlife yourself so all you'd be doing is filling their last bit of life with uneasy questions and worry. Without the promise of an afterlife a good chunk of people would have a much scarier ride to their final moments.

I wasn't born into religion like some of the people on this forum, but from what I understand, it's a pretty shaky transition from belief to disbelief. Takes a long time to get your head right, and if you don't have that time your last days might be even more unpleasant.
Have I ever claimed that Erxy's mom is like me?

And I know of a few who because of Jesus died. Don't you go misunderstanding me. My opinion on this matter is not "Well just because I like it means everybody would" mine is "I would give my parents the respect they have EARNED and talk to them truthfully." It is still their choice to convert or not, and I do not hold that right over them. If they still want to believe in a lie, I am not going to stop them from doing so, but I at least am going to TRY to talk some sense into them first.

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