I don't want my mom to become an atheist.

[Atothetheist]

Anyways guys, I really do hope this subject won't change your guy's opinion of me drastically.

Some of this I have taken personaly, and I shouldn't have.

I just want to say:

Erxomai, The responsibility falls on you, and knowing you on this forum for about a year, I have no doubt you will do what you think is best for your mother.

P.S sorry Dom and anybody that I might have lashed out on.

[Dom]

(24-11-2012 11:53 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  

(24-11-2012 09:24 AM)Dom Wrote:  You still don't get old people. They are not like you, strong and able to stand up for yourself and tell someone "no".

They will sit there and let the stuff rain down on them and pray it will end...and then they will cry.

They are helpless.

When my mom was on her death bed she asked me to please go block the door so the priest could not get in. She didn't want to waste what little life she had left listening to something she was never going to get anything out of, and that was offensive to her (non)belief and sensibilities.

If I had not been abe to shield her, she would have had to listen to the priest, trying hard as heck to ignore him and nodding here and there hoping it would make it end faster.

You just don't get old people, you still must be thinking of people your parent's age. They are not old and perfectly able to stand up for themselves.

When you are old you avoid confrontation because you know you don't have the strength to stand up for yourself. That's why there is so much elder abuse in this world - the old are totally defenseless.

This old person will sit there helplessly listening to you tearing down everything that made up their values in life...just cruel.

Go and volunteer for a while in an old folk's home - so you can understand better what it's like to be old and helpless.

Whether someone pushes religion or atheism or anything else makes no difference - when you do it to an elderly person, it's cruel. They can't debate anymore. They are just sitting ducks. And shooting down everything that matters to them is .... I lack the words.

Excuse me. I get the feeling that you think I am just going to start and then keep going on talking about it. First, I will ask, if they are silent, I will take that as a no. If they say no, that's a no. If they say yes, I will be as kind and understanding as possible.

I almost want to say fuck you, but I realize that maybe you just think I am so ignorant that you assume I haven't helped out old people before.

Do you honestly think I will be so cruel as to NOT ASK FIRST? DO YOU THINK I AM THAT HEARTLESS THAT I WILL TAKE THEIR SILENCE AS A YES?

How about you stop assuming shit about me? I am more careful, understanding, and knowledgable than you think about situations like these.

You just don't get me, so how about you shut the fuck up about how "I don't get old people, I must be still thinking about people in their mid forties" because it is getting frustrating that I have to endure you calling me ignorant of a subject I am very well versed in.

Yes, I am getting mad at you, Dom. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I am because I am sick and tired of you assumin I do not know how to talk to old people because I am young.

By the way, I volunteered for two years at an old folks home, so thanks for nothing.

I am sorry for getting mad, but when I think to how It's my job to babysit senior citizens and take care of them and you saying I know nothing about old people makes me think that I have not done a good job.

My question is Dom, do you think all old people are so weak that they can't say "No." Or something else to that effect? Do you think all old people are sitting ducks? Because I have taken care of a lot of old people, and some of them are definitely NOT sitting ducks, or anything like you describe them to be. How much are you relying on your description of you mother to make a point? Because I have met old people that can handle it, and that have handled it. Not all of the time is religion there frame work. No, it wasn't me that converted them, but their own thinking.

I remember there was a war vet that I was talking too and when he was describing how that chaplains were so useless he was stone cold serious. Me, being a theist back then, asked why they were useless and he replied that God wasn't real. I asked him why he thought that, and he said "Any Decent God wouldn't send anyone to war."

I asked him when he started thinking that, and he said he last believed in god a year ago. This man was 91.

I am not telling you you are wrong, I am just saying your points are not for all old people.

A talk about God doesn't need to be threatening, and it doesn't need to be pushy or negative.

Silence is an answer, Dom, I understand that more than you can possibly know.

Ok Ato, I didn't mean to make you mad. I hope you won't stay that way, because the reason I bother getting into this with you is that I like you and I think you can see my point too.

If I didn't like you or if I thought you were closed minded, I would never bother.

I think I am also sayng what a lot of people are thinking. And I just can't keep my mouth shut when something bugs me. Not always a good quality. But at least with me you always know what's going on.

I had no idea you had volunteered at a senior home - good for you.

Obviously seniors are not all alike. By the way, my mom was an atheist. Lots of older people are, albeit most of them are in the closet. In their time, coming out would have cost them family and job and everything. There was no internet or even TV. Things were very different then, people thought they were the only one and usually felt guilty about not believing. Times have gotten so much better, and yes, it's the work of the new generations that have come to be since the old were young.

However, I continue to think it is very wrong to put a person who is approaching death and knows it ( I am not talking about vivacious, spritely seniors who will live another 10 or 20 years, but people in pain and nearing the end like Erx's mom, who this thread is about) in a position where they have to tell themselves their entire life was a lie, all their friends were liars, and everyone they cared about was stupid. That is just wrong, and there is absolutely nothing to be gained by it. The only result will be depression until death, fear of death and a slew of other bad thoughts I don't wish on my worst enemy.

When you are facing death, how you lived your life is the most important thing on earth. You want to have made a difference, and you need to feel good about your life like at no other time.

So you want to rob them of that for what reason? The "truth"? Your personal truth? That you can feel good about having spoken the truth? Your ego gets strokes for it? Because most certainly the pain you caused by tearing down a person's entire life just before death is more important than your personal satisfaction of having ruthlessy presented the "truth".

I think we have argued ourselves in a corner. And I really don't think you would pull the rug out from under a dying person. I don't think you are the type. I think if you were in the situation, your empathy would emerge. And I think you would value their peaceful and happy departure more than your "truth". I don't see you as such a heartless person, and that is why I pushed the issue.

[Stark Raving]

(24-11-2012 12:45 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ok Ato, I didn't mean to make you mad. I hope you won't stay that way, because the reason I bother getting into this with you is that I like you and I think you can see my point too.

If I didn't like you or if I thought you were closed minded, I would never bother.

I think I am also sayng what a lot of people are thinking. And I just can't keep my mouth shut when something bugs me. Not always a good quality. But at least with me you always know what's going on.

I had no idea you had volunteered at a senior home - good for you.

Obviously seniors are not all alike. By the way, my mom was an atheist. Lots of older people are, albeit most of them are in the closet. In their time, coming out would have cost them family and job and everything. There was no internet or even TV. Things were very different then, people thought they were the only one and usually felt guilty about not believing. Times have gotten so much better, and yes, it's the work of the new generations that have come to be since the old were young.

However, I continue to think it is very wrong to put a person who is approaching death and knows it ( I am not talking about vivacious, spritely seniors who will live another 10 or 20 years, but people in pain and nearing the end like Erx's mom, who this thread is about) in a position where they have to tell themselves their entire life was a lie, all their friends were liars, and everyone they cared about was stupid. That is just wrong, and there is absolutely nothing to be gained by it. The only result will be depression until death, fear of death and a slew of other bad thoughts I don't wish on my worst enemy.

When you are facing death, how you lived your life is the most important thing on earth. You want to have made a difference, and you need to feel good about your life like at no other time.

So you want to rob them of that for what reason? The "truth"? Your personal truth? That you can feel good about having spoken the truth? Your ego gets strokes for it? Because most certainly the pain you caused by tearing down a person's entire life just before death is more important than your personal satisfaction of having ruthlessy presented the "truth".

I think we have argued ourselves in a corner. And I really don't think you would pull the rug out from under a dying person. I don't think you are the type. I think if you were in the situation, your empathy would emerge. And I think you would value their peaceful and happy departure more than your "truth". I don't see you as such a heartless person, and that is why I pushed the issue.

I usually avoid making "ditto posts", but Dom is saying pretty much exactly what I'm thinking.

I'll even take it a step further......
I have no problem lying to someone if it means they won't have to endure unnessecary suffering. If my mom were in the same situation as erx's mom, I'd tell her whatever she needed to hear to make her last bit of time here happy. Yup. That's right. I'd even go as far as pretending I believe. It wouldn't be any skin off my ass, and my loved ones happiness is more important than any "truth" that is benign and irrelevant to their remaining life.

[Atothetheist]

Look, I get what you are saying, and I understand your guy's love towards your mothers, but I can't say I would lie to anybody, even if the lie would make them happy.

[lucradis]

A2 you might be surprised at how in certain scenarios you might find it better to fib. Then again maybe not. I believe myself to be a pretty honest guy, but its Christmas and I have a kid. Suddenly I'm all about lying my fuckin face right off.

My kid does bad shit and in the first one to claim.naughty list.
This however has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I just love Santa is all. Don't judge me.

[Dom]

(24-11-2012 01:01 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look, I get what you are saying, and I understand your guy's love towards your mothers, but I can't say I would lie to anybody, even if the lie would make them happy.

Ato, this is for you:

And I am going to start a new thread - about lies. Maybe see you there. I think we have talked this aspect to death, but there are many other interesting situations.

[kingschosen]

(24-11-2012 01:01 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look, I get what you are saying, and I understand your guy's love towards your mothers, but I can't say I would lie to anybody, even if the lie would make them happy.

Interesting.

Let's say Christianity became illegal... punishable by death.

What if I was hiding out in your house, and the Christian Elimination Task Force came by and asked you if you were harboring Christians. Knowing that they would kill me on the spot, you wouldn't lie and tell them you weren't hiding anyone?

*similar events happen in Nazi Germany*

[Chas]

(24-11-2012 01:42 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  

(24-11-2012 01:01 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look, I get what you are saying, and I understand your guy's love towards your mothers, but I can't say I would lie to anybody, even if the lie would make them happy.

Interesting.

Let's say Christianity became illegal... punishable by death.

What if I was hiding out in your house, and the Christian Elimination Task Force came by and asked you if you were harboring Christians. Knowing that they would kill me on the spot, you wouldn't lie and tell them you weren't hiding anyone?

*similar events happen in Nazi Germany*

I would never give someone up.

Except a Calvinist.

[Atothetheist]

(24-11-2012 01:42 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  

(24-11-2012 01:01 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look, I get what you are saying, and I understand your guy's love towards your mothers, but I can't say I would lie to anybody, even if the lie would make them happy.

Interesting.

Let's say Christianity became illegal... punishable by death.

What if I was hiding out in your house, and the Christian Elimination Task Force came by and asked you if you were harboring Christians. Knowing that they would kill me on the spot, you wouldn't lie and tell them you weren't hiding anyone?

*similar events happen in Nazi Germany*

Well, alright. I would lie, but that's because what I say has very serious consequences, and I think the law is unjust in making it so. If the law was something I agreed with, then yes I would tell the truth,but the law wasn't something I agreed with. In that instance lying would be better for my moral view.

If you get what I mean.

If the law was something I agreed deserved death then yes, I would tell the truth, but if it is something like you described, then I will lie because the law is in the wrong and telling the truth would be in the wrong.

[Erxomai]

(24-11-2012 01:42 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  

(24-11-2012 01:01 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Look, I get what you are saying, and I understand your guy's love towards your mothers, but I can't say I would lie to anybody, even if the lie would make them happy.

Interesting.

Let's say Christianity became illegal... punishable by death.

What if I was hiding out in your house, and the Christian Elimination Task Force came by and asked you if you were harboring Christians. Knowing that they would kill me on the spot, you wouldn't lie and tell them you weren't hiding anyone?

*similar events happen in Nazi Germany*

Lie? I'd be the one who called them.