I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
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24-11-2012, 02:10 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(24-11-2012 02:02 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 01:42 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Interesting.

Let's say Christianity became illegal... punishable by death.

What if I was hiding out in your house, and the Christian Elimination Task Force came by and asked you if you were harboring Christians. Knowing that they would kill me on the spot, you wouldn't lie and tell them you weren't hiding anyone?

*similar events happen in Nazi Germany*
Well, alright. I would lie, but that's because what I say has very serious consequences, and I think the law is unjust in making it so. If the law was something I agreed with, then yes I would tell the truth,but the law wasn't something I agreed with. In that instance lying would be better for my moral view.

If you get what I mean.

If the law was something I agreed deserved death then yes, I would tell the truth, but if it is something like you described, then I will lie because the law is in the wrong and telling the truth would be in the wrong.
So, you're saying that the lines of right and wrong are blurred and are based on relativity... meaning, not everything is black and white. There are shades of gray, and based on the situation, the truth might not always be the best course of action.

You're saying that your perception of the situation may have a different moral outlook that someone else's perception.

Because, to the CETF, they are doing the moral thing and upholding the law. To them, you are being morally reprehensible as you are breaking their moral standard.

I think you see where this is going.

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24-11-2012, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2012 02:39 PM by Atothetheist.)
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(24-11-2012 02:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 02:02 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Well, alright. I would lie, but that's because what I say has very serious consequences, and I think the law is unjust in making it so. If the law was something I agreed with, then yes I would tell the truth,but the law wasn't something I agreed with. In that instance lying would be better for my moral view.

If you get what I mean.

If the law was something I agreed deserved death then yes, I would tell the truth, but if it is something like you described, then I will lie because the law is in the wrong and telling the truth would be in the wrong.
So, you're saying that the lines of right and wrong are blurred and are based on relativity... meaning, not everything is black and white. There are shades of gray, and based on the situation, the truth might not always be the best course of action.

You're saying that your perception of the situation may have a different moral outlook that someone else's perception.

Because, to the CETF, they are doing the moral thing and upholding the law. To them, you are being morally reprehensible as you are breaking their moral standard.

I think you see where this is going.
First of all, never did I say Morality is not relative, or black or white.

I have a moral system based on protecting the innocent, and their rights. It just so happens that yo chose a situation where the right to think and practice what ever the fuck they want (unless it hurts other innocent people) is infringed.

Protecting the innocents and their rights is more morally right than to tell the truth.

The law is not morality, it takes only one corrupt person to change it into something monstrous.

If you were a murderer, I would give you up on a heartbeat. I wouldn't even hesitate. People have the right to think and practice what they want, and I will lie in order to protect that right. I will even give up my life to allow you to practice it.

You are completely right, in some circumstances and in dire situations I will lie to protect people, but if asked my views, or if discussing something with another person with no real dire consequences like immidiate death or toture or anything else that I deem so, I will speak the truth, and I will not lie.

You choose a different situation where your life is in my hands, If I tell the truth, You WILL die. Not "Maybe" but it is certain that you will die. Now, lets say they threaten my family, or anybody else if I don't tell the truth. I will tell the truth then because most likely it was MY decision to hide you, and no one else's so my family or any neighbors shouldn't be hurt for what I did. I will tell the truth and you will be killed.

Understand that yes, there are circumstances in which I would lie, but they are almost NONEXISTENT in normal, day to day life.

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24-11-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
Just getting you to think, bud. That's all.

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24-11-2012, 02:56 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Just getting you to think, bud. That's all.
You think I haven't thought of it before?

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24-11-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
A2, I suspect you are feeling like we're attacking your morality. We're not (at least I'm not, and I think the others that are of similar thinking aren't either). But this:
(24-11-2012 02:30 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  You are completely right, in some circumstances and in dire situations I will lie to protect people, but if asked my views, or if discussing something with another person with no real dire consequences like immidiate death or toture or anything else that I deem so, I will speak the truth, and I will not lie.
is what I'm getting at. Your confines for lying are just so restrictive. I think with time, you'll realize that simple kindness warrants considering a lie. Someone does not need to be facing immediate death or torture for me to choose the kind approach over the "truth". I truly hope, as you mature, your views will soften, and I am very confident they will. That ain't a dig at you for being immature, it's just pointing out that most people soften up a little when they get older, and I think you will too.

Do no harm my friend.

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24-11-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(24-11-2012 03:18 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  A2, I suspect you are feeling like we're attacking your morality. We're not (at least I'm not, and I think the others that are of similar thinking aren't either). But this:
(24-11-2012 02:30 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  You are completely right, in some circumstances and in dire situations I will lie to protect people, but if asked my views, or if discussing something with another person with no real dire consequences like immidiate death or toture or anything else that I deem so, I will speak the truth, and I will not lie.
is what I'm getting at. Your confines for lying are just so restrictive. I think with time, you'll realize that simple kindness warrants considering a lie. Someone does not need to be facing immediate death or torture for me to choose the kind approach over the "truth". I truly hope, as you mature, your views will soften, and I am very confident they will. That ain't a dig at you for being immature, it's just pointing out that most people soften up a little when they get older, and I think you will too.

Do no harm my friend.
I understand, Starky.

No matter how much you guys criticize me or point out any flaws, I understand you are doing it to help me.

In fact that's why I like this place so much, you guys care enough to point out what you think is wrong about me and my way of thinking.

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24-11-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(24-11-2012 02:56 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Just getting you to think, bud. That's all.
You think I haven't thought of it before?
/shrug

Don't take it personally. People ask me stuff all the time like that. I know the motives are pure and others just want me to think another way... even if I already have before.

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25-11-2012, 01:21 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
As I've said before, it depends a lot on what the person values. An older who is very religious and values their religion a lot isn't going to have much to gain from it.

Additionally, she's the only one who could make that decision, even if fifty "militant atheists" were beating on her door, if she believes she'll continue to believe and think they're wrong, not her. Even a well reasoned argument won't convince many people on either side.

As I read it though, and I skimmed the OP while drunk, I got the idea he was just saying it probably wouldn't be good for his mom to become an atheist at this point, not that he wants to rant and rave about atheism and deconvert her at gunpoint or anything. And I'd agree, at that point, if she values her faith, I'd let her continue to have her faith.

More generally:
As for truth, truth is good, but I probably don't give much a damn if others believe in woo or not, I just don't want anyone to enforce their woo on me or to impose on other people's freedom with their woo, or kill people over woo, etc. That's why I don't like childhood indoctrination, it keeps people believing in woo for life sometimes, causing them to make bad decisions in some cases. I've never tried to influence anyone's beliefs who didn't ask me to discuss these things with them.

But if I could choose, I'd rather that children were free of woo, not older people. Children are going to grow up, do stuff, make decisions, vote, etc. I don't think woo will be eradicated, at least not during our lifetimes. So rather than trying to make everyone an atheist, I'd prefer to protect human rights and make it harder for people's woo to be made into law, etc. That's where it harms everybody. If the woo stayed in people's heads only, it wouldn't harm others.
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25-11-2012, 02:59 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
(23-11-2012 08:31 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(23-11-2012 04:45 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  A person does not become an atheist through the will of another person. They make the conscious decision themselves. If your mother decides to become an atheist with her full knowledge and consent, who are you to tell her not to?

She would never come to that place on her own.
Every atheist on the face of this Earth became such through their own will. All our debates do is provide the tools to get there.

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25-11-2012, 06:40 PM
RE: I don't want my mom to become an atheist.
Very interesting discussion. One needs to factor in trust to the equation. Very easy to lose with dishonesty and much harder to rebuild.

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