I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-03-2012, 09:01 PM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
(05-03-2012 12:28 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  It's just a thought experiment... the person not returning is a given, as part of the premise. But nevertheless, it doesn't really matter... it's just to illustrate to the reader the difference between sadness and grief.

Then you can't stipulate what the persons reaction will be seeing as its not possible.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-03-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
(05-03-2012 09:01 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(05-03-2012 12:28 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  It's just a thought experiment... the person not returning is a given, as part of the premise. But nevertheless, it doesn't really matter... it's just to illustrate to the reader the difference between sadness and grief.

Then you can't stipulate what the persons reaction will be seeing as its not possible.

Did you not feel a different reaction? Like I told Dom, I can't force you to feel differently, but it is to be expected that you'll feel two different emotions.

I should probably also point out that this is not my thought experiment, but rather I'm sharing what I heard from a man I greatly respect. Perhaps I should have just linked to his video and let you address him with your complaints. But honestly, I think you should just let it go. You haven't yet argued that sadness and grief are synonymous, and if you don't believe that they are, my point stands with or without the thought experiment.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-03-2012, 10:49 PM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
I recall an incident where a Christian Girl died during a Christian themed class, and it was "God's will."
I try not to touch on this subject, because its their way of mourning. However, it can be abused.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-03-2012, 07:35 AM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
(05-03-2012 12:28 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(05-03-2012 06:46 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  You could easily argue that the person is not grieving at first because he knows there is still a chance that he will meet them again. As long as they are not dead, that possibility will always remain.

It's just a thought experiment... the person not returning is a given, as part of the premise. But nevertheless, it doesn't really matter... it's just to illustrate to the reader the difference between sadness and grief.
(05-03-2012 08:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  Just like any withdrawal, grief has a physical basis as well as an emotional one. Neither of them are rational.

Isn't that kind of selfish? I've had friends that I've lost contact with, and I hardly feel sad when I think about them... they're doing fine, but they're just not a part of my life. It's a different feeling than the consideration of people that are dead... and I do think about people who have died. Your post was all about the person going through the withdrawal symptoms, but it's a little different when we talk about people, because of course no one cares about how their drug is doing without them. Most of us care about the happiness and well-being of people we've lost touch with. It's part of the consolation.

Nonetheless, like I expressed to mysticjbyrd, the point of the thought experiment was to make the reader personally feel each emotion so that the reader could personally sort out the difference between sadness and grief. If you didn't feel anything different, then I can't help further because I don't know how to clarify the difference in words. It's like anger and fury... the only way you'd know the degrees of difference between two similar emotions is to have felt each.

I wish you had put up the source.

The grieving literature I have read all allows for the word to be applied to much lesser things than death. Like not getting a job one put all one's hopes into, losing a favorite item, going through a divorce and many other things. The common thread is that there is a loss. Grieving is how the body and mind adjust to loss. It has nothing to do with the lost item or person at all.

There are common occurrances when grieving, but not all people experience all symptoms, and all is very depending on the depth of the loss.

Milder giref is for instance when you lose your wedding ring. It is somewhat physical, you'll keep feeling for the ring and it's not there. Everytime that happens, there is an emotion that goes with it. Eventually your body gets used to it being gone, the physical issue goes away and with it goes the emotion.

When a couple has been married for 50 years and the partner dies it's a whole different, all consuming thing, but it is also classified as grief. From morning til night the grief is constant, because every physical thing you do has been linked to the missing person. Waking up, making coffee, eating, shopping, cleaning, whatever you do all day it all is different now and there is a physical and mental adjustment. This type of grief lessens over the years, but rarely does it ever go way completely. Maybe it would after another 50 years had passed...But, like Pavlov's dog, the conditioning you underwent for all that time is stubborn and grief will occur, like it or not.

Sadness - I don't know much about it, I haven't studied it and I don't experience it much except in connection with this grief. Some things that used to give me pleasure now make me sad. Like when the wild geese flew in the other day and there was a white one among the Canada Geese. My impulse was to tell my husband, then the realization he was gone (this is a matter of a second) and then sadness that he couldn't see it, it was something he would have enjoyed. This sadness was for him, not me. Of course that second where I wanted to tell him and then realized he was dead - that is grief and comes packed with emotions.

So I see that there are seperate things - sadness and grief, but one doesn't preclude the other, and often they come bundled.

Grief is not something you choose or can guide or control. It is caused by purely physical triggers, by alteration of surroundings and behavior. Believe me, if there was a way to put a stop to it I surely would have. It is not anything I want, nor is it anything my husband would have wanted for me, quite the opposite. The damn thing is like a disease.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-03-2012, 09:02 AM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
Oops, just discovered your link.

He makes theoretical sense, but he hasn't done his homework on defining what grief is.

I want to agree with him, but I can't.

Again, grief is a physical reaction to loss.

I don't think my husband is in heaven, and I know he was ok with dying. He went very peacefully, he wasn't scared of it, he wasn't in pain, and there is nothing upsetting at all about his death. He just went to the big sleep.

Physically, we are all the same pretty much. Believers and non believers, none of us are immune to anything physical occurring in our bodies.

Knowing that the departed person - whether on his long wanted trip to outer space or dead - is ok or wanted this does not affect your body.

Grief is caused simply by a physical withdrawal, and it can be complicated by surrounding circumstances.

The departed having been murdered invokes other things in us that complicate things - empathy, rage etc.

The departed being on a "forever trip to outer space" does not invoke any complications, but it does not affect grief itself.

Since my husband passed peacefully, and since there were no things left unsaid, I am perfectly at peace with his passing. No regrets, no trauma, I am lucky not to have a lot of complicating emotions. (except some rage at the hospital which expedited his passing. Without those numbnuts he might have had a chance at treatment)

None of that affects the physical and emotional pain I feel when I wake up from a dream where he was alive and there is an empty spot in bed next to me. He just died all over again in my head, and it hurts.

When I make coffee, I make less than I am used to. Bam - grief sets in.
When I fix breakfast - same thing. Or I skip it alltogether. Doesn't matter what I do, same trigger.

And so it goes on all day. You never know how much your lives become intertwined with your partner until they are gone. And every action that needs to be changed because of the absent person is a trigger.

That's what grief is.

It has nothing to do with the departed per se, and it's a physical reaction, you can't call it selfish. Then going to the bathroom would be selfish.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
(04-03-2012 07:30 PM)satan69 Wrote:  I want to comment on this story : http://news.yahoo.com/hospital-says-ind-...51004.html

There was a tornado that killed about 40 people. A baby was found alive amongst the rubble on Friday, after everyone else was found dead. Immediately, the christians started hawking about how this was god looking out for the baby and this is a sign of god. 2 days later the baby died. What are they saying now. Why do you stupid fucking christians always get to have it both ways. the baby lives -its god- the baby dies- i guess now it's gods will. I'm sick of it. I'm sure you idiots were praying for this baby for 2 days and it didn't work!!!

They always do this, it's called Being a Christian 101. When the Chilean Miners were rescued, it was a miracle from Jesus, but two weeks later, when a mine collapse in China killed dozens, ah .... well .... shit happens, y'know? That must have been part of God's plan too, we just cannot know why.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2012, 10:40 AM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
(06-03-2012 09:02 AM)Dom Wrote:  He makes theoretical sense, but he hasn't done his homework on defining what grief is.

I want to agree with him, but I can't.

Again, grief is a physical reaction to loss.

You make a good point --- there may be some equivocation here. The definition of grief and the definition of sadness would appear to make them synonyms. Perhaps grief is just the wrong word.

When I do the thought experiment, I feel two different emotions. I can't properly label them, but they do appear to be different degrees of pain in my own experience, which is why I thought it was such a great thought experiment when I first heard it. But of course I'm coming at it from an Atheist perspective --- maybe a Christian doesn't feel any differently, and thinks, "Meh. Either way he was off to a bright future, and either way it's a future without me." I simply can't know because of my personal bias.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
(08-03-2012 10:40 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(06-03-2012 09:02 AM)Dom Wrote:  He makes theoretical sense, but he hasn't done his homework on defining what grief is.

I want to agree with him, but I can't.

Again, grief is a physical reaction to loss.

You make a good point --- there may be some equivocation here. The definition of grief and the definition of sadness would appear to make them synonyms. Perhaps grief is just the wrong word.

When I do the thought experiment, I feel two different emotions. I can't properly label them, but they do appear to be different degrees of pain in my own experience, which is why I thought it was such a great thought experiment when I first heard it. But of course I'm coming at it from an Atheist perspective --- maybe a Christian doesn't feel any differently, and thinks, "Meh. Either way he was off to a bright future, and either way it's a future without me." I simply can't know because of my personal bias.

I would think it wouldn't be much different for Christians. Whether my husband is in heaven, reincarnated as an eagle, travelling the universe in a spaceship without return or ceased to exist doesn't really matter - he's just not here and he will never be back. There is a huge hole where he used to be.

This experiment is difficult to do because grief is physical and irrational, so the mind cannot control it or probably imagine it. And there are so many degrees of it, and then individual differences based on general life experience and personality....

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2012, 07:13 PM
RE: I don't want to make fun of a sad situation....
dom, why don't you date a new guy. im sure there are men in your age group that lost their SO. Some people are more dependent on other people then others. i worked with this one girl who couldnt stay single for 2 seconds. she had to have a boyfriend, and went from one guy to the next. others, like myself, like to have the freedom to not be bothered with a relationship. maybe your somewhere in the middle.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: