I feel bad for Brock Turner
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12-06-2016, 09:31 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:00 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  You guys don't even fucking know me, yet you call me a rapist and a sociopath and a rape apologist. That's fucking outrageous, like there are no words. There's nothing I can imagine saying to any of you that would get it through your mind to stop being vindictive fucking piles of fucking shit and god DAMN it I just feel like slamming my fucking fingers against he key board when I type this. I fucking HATE YOU! You don't even know me and you treat me like I'm some mad man piece of shit, WELL FUCK YOU!
You hate us? What's next? You will start throwing your toys at us?

You're just pathetic.

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12-06-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 09:27 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Okay so, if this devolves into a shit slinging fest, I'm not even going to bother replying.

Mittens, you should stick to what you said with the very first sentence of the OP.
Ya got the better of me, I admit. It was too tempting. As soon as people start demonizing me and treating me like shit, I feel obliged to apply on principle. That's not a good thing really, but at least it hasn't made me feel to upset. At least I got to do some writing, I write a lot and I enjoy writing. I don't enjoy the discussion in this thread at all though. I'm usually a pretty chill person and all the shit I've seen in this thread is fucking ghastly. This isn't the sort of thing that goes on when I talk with my friends, when I talked with my buddy from England today we had a serious 2 hour discussion about morality and it was actually interesting. Except the level of discussion in this thread has devolved so badly, it's like watching something fall apart in your hands.
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12-06-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 09:32 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 09:27 PM)pablo Wrote:  Mittens, you should stick to what you said with the very first sentence of the OP.
Ya got the better of me, I admit. It was too tempting. As soon as people start demonizing me and treating me like shit, I feel obliged to apply on principle. That's not a good thing really, but at least it hasn't made me feel to upset. At least I got to do some writing, I write a lot and I enjoy writing. I don't enjoy the discussion in this thread at all though. I'm usually a pretty chill person and all the shit I've seen in this thread is fucking ghastly. This isn't the sort of thing that goes on when I talk with my friends, when I talked with my buddy from England today we had a serious 2 hour discussion about morality and it was actually interesting. Except the level of discussion in this thread has devolved so badly, it's like watching something fall apart in your hands.

Then just drop it.
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12-06-2016, 09:42 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  God. It's like people say harsh shit to me and they don't expect me to respond to them.

I gave you every benefit of the fucking doubt, and I was more than polite. Then about 4 ignored posts in, you said you didn't care for the victim, and tried to equivocate and say that the rapist was also a victim of his own rape. That's when you lost me. That displayed such a shocking lack of empathy for the actual victim (who, unlike the rapist, was actually raped; you shockingly seem unable to tell the difference), it retroactively made everything you posted before sound like utter bullshit.

You dug that hole.


(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  It's like, what the fuck, I haven't been aggressive or intentionally inflammatory at all in this entire thread, but others have sure as hell done that to me.

Because you equivocated the plight of the rapist with his victim. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but being veterans of many religious debates, most the the people here are not a fan of bullshit equivocation.


(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  That's actually filled me with some pride and calm, because I realize that you can stand up to the face of ignorance and bullying, because look at how it's made absolutely no difference.

"So you can see how I would sympathize with him, and not really care about the rape victim. He's now a second rape victim."


You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to call you a stupid, heartless, motherfucker for it.


(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  That's their fault for not understanding the points that I'm making, and I really don't care about how I come across.

The sign of failed communicator.


(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  No, I don't care what you say about me trying to find provocation, because I being 100% honest and sincere when I say that I did not make this thread to provoke other people. I am just being serious. And all the accusations of me being a sociopath, a rape apologist, and even a fucking rapist, it's laughable.

Once again, for the record.

"So you can see how I would sympathize with him, and not really care about the rape victim. He's now a second rape victim."


^ NEWS FLASH: That makes you a rape apologist. You just equated being a rapist with being the victim of rape. ^


(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  That's complete verbal dog shit, you really think that's something I should take to heart? I'm sorry, but if you think I should take that sort of cruelty to heart, then you're one sadistic fuck.

The only sadistic fuck here is the one equating being a rapist with being a rape victim.

So that means you.

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12-06-2016, 09:45 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 09:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 09:22 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I am just being serious. And all the accusations of me being a sociopath, a rape apologist, and even a fucking rapist, it's laughable. That's complete verbal dog shit, you really think that's something I should take to heart? I'm sorry, but if you think I should take that sort of cruelty to heart, then you're one sadistic fuck.

You sound like a psychopath and rape apologist. See above.

You are responsible for your words.


But Chas! We're all just victims, and he's no more responsible for his words than that rapist was for his act of rape.

Because determinism...

Or something...

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12-06-2016, 09:49 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 09:27 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Okay so, if this devolves into a shit slinging fest, I'm not even going to bother replying.

Mittens, you should stick to what you said with the very first sentence of the OP.

Yes, from the very first sentence he knew what he was saying. He knew it was going to provocative, but instead of just leaving it behind, he continued to try to defend and shift the blame to us. That somehow we're to blame.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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12-06-2016, 10:29 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
Congrats, you got my lazy ass to negatively rep you. That is quite an accomplishment, since I'm such a lazy bastard and don't usually give a crap about silly reputations.
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13-06-2016, 12:25 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Okay so, if this devolves into a shit slinging fest, I'm not even going to bother replying. I've had so much trouble with other people, just trying to express my concern over this case.

Let me just lay out how I feel, then we can discuss my reasoning, if it isn't already clear. I feel bad for Brock Turner, as I feel bad for anyone who's basically bound to the laws of society. I feel bad that a person has their life ruined, that their reputation is in shambles, that hey can't compete in the Olympics when they were an Olympic hopeful. I feel bad for people who commit a crime, no matter how severe, and basically have the law inflicting severe punishments on them. As a matter of fact, I feel happy when people get away with serious crimes.

I'm not trying to fuck with you, as a lot of people have thought when I've brought up this point before. Ultimately I feel that reality is deterministic, I believe that people will commit crimes because the universe is a naturally chaotic place. To be mad at people who commit crimes is ultimately to be mad at the natural chaotic order of the universe. That's immature.

The justice system doesn't work, regardless. It's pure pragmatism. We put people in jail because there's an existential dilemma in our society; we have to live with one another and we have to make society work among the chaos. That is the point of the justice system. Not to mention that our punitive justice system is archaic and draconian. We're caging people like animals, and in a lot of cases we hate people, because they're the other. They're the "them" in our pack of society. That mentality saddens me to the deepest existential core of my being. I believe we're all people, it makes me sad when I see people's one life get squandered.

There's many who don't get my point of view, and I have tried to explain it to people before, my dad got upset and didn't really want to listen to me. He said that he believes that if someone commits this sort of crime that their life deserves to be ruined. What right does one person have to assert total control over another human being? I think that it's sad, but this self righteousness arises out of an illusion of consciousness. We perceive ourselves to have free will, which is false. We're ultimately governed by the same forces that pull a rock down a hill.

It's amazing to me, that through those forces I can do the things I do, but ultimately it's a program, it's a computer. It may sound like I'm trying to excuse someone for their "biological urge to rape", well, actually yes, I suppose you could look at it that way. Because if that's the sort of brain that a person has developed, and they don't work along the same lines of morality that someone else has, then you can't blame them, you shouldn't blame anyone really. Because that is simply the way things work.

Let me be clearer about my ideas on free will. It's an illusion of consciousness, that comes from being self aware of our own existence. We think that because we're aware of our own existence that we have some sort of control over it, that we're not basically biological robots that have been programmed in our DNA to feel and think the way we do. No, I mentioned in paragraph 3 why I feel this is important. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I really have had some bad experiences with this topic, I got banned from a feminist forum on facebook for trying to make this argument, my own dad got really mad at me for saying this. I think it's sad, because I'm dead fucking serious about this.

Allow me to point out where you are going wrong.

"Brooklyn is not expanding"

I recommend Steven Pinker's Blank Slate (there's a YouTube audiobook somewhere) and anything that Dan Dennett has produced regarding Free Will as Moral Competence.

To give you some hope, I'll start by agreeing with you...

I too am an existential nihilist. Actually, Absurdist would be closer to the mark (as Girly pointed out to me once or twice).

So why would someone who knows that in the long, long term nothing really matters (nothing really matters to me... any way the winds blows) buy into the Social Contract and sign away their freedoms for the sake of temporal societal cohesion?

... because Brooklyn is not expanding.





And while I wouldn't say I feel bad for Brock Turner (due to his lack of remorse and his obvious attempt to capitalise on his 'entitlement') I can go as far as saying that I can empathise to a degree.

I know what it's like to lose control.

I last lost my temper when I was 8 years old. I lost it with a boy in the playground at school. We bumped into each other as I was about to make a triumphal touch-down and I skidded along the asphalt ... on my face ... blood everywhere.

The ferocity of my retribution scared me even as I was pummeling him. Yes, the retribution felt divine but I vowed never to do it again.

I've faked anger a few times since in order to make a point or as a power-tactic but I was in full control.

I know there is a switch that can be flipped and I know there is a "in case of emergency" sticker on the switch.

I have installed a 'dimmer' system. I have the App and the control software. It's the control I need when stepping onto the stage to earn my living ... just enough adrenaline to take control of the room but not too much to trigger the flight / fight / freeze instinct.

More relevant to the case is lust. If you have not felt it, and I mean real, intense, animalistic lust, I recommend it but like anger and fear, it's advisable to first experiment with it under adult supervision in a controlled environment.

My most recent experience with this was late last year.

X-rated bit:
My ex-flat mate, K, invited me over to her place for some fun. We are making love (slow, tender stuff) and her new flat mate, J, wanted to spice things up so she starts vigorously masturbating and well, y'know. She then straddles K and we kiss, intensely, and she moves my hand in between her legs and whispers "Go on".

I'm bad at reading signals so I have to be 100% certain. I hesitated for a second while I checked and double checked all the stop/go 'consent' signals and then flipped the switch!

The next hour was pure animal... pure rhapsody!

The reason why the 'free will illusion' matters is because of that stop/go control software ... it's about moral competence.

Brock Turner either did not have the control software uploaded or it temporarily stopped working ... for that he has my sympathy. I hope the latter never happens to me.

His disregard for the concept of 'consent' or even 'consent under duress' can be understood if he too was chemically impaired. Understood but not forgiven.

But to not have the Remorse-program installed: that's what disgusts everyone. It makes him dangerous to everyone around him (although he may well get a job on Wall Street).

There was no remorse, no contrition and not even an apology.

So fuck him. Let him rot in jail for the rest of his life. And fuck the system that says he doesn't have to.

We have evolved the controls (consent, stop/go, justice, retribution) to enforce the social contract.

Yes, the Universe is expanding but Brooklyn isn't.

(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  The justice system doesn't work, regardless. It's pure pragmatism.

From a distance, Brock Turner is a silhouette of a man and so was his victim.

Brock Turner: "I'm just a rich boy, nobody loves me".
Judge: "He's just a rich boy, from a rich family. Spare him his life from this monstrosity."
Brock Turner: "Easy come, easy go. Will you let me go?"
Judge: "Bismillah, yes!"

Victim: "So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye?
So you think you can love me and leave me to die?
Oh, baby, can't do this to me, baby,
Just gotta get out, just gotta get right outta here."

He thought he could. Everyone else thinks otherwise.

The circle of empathy is growing.
Darwinian kin selection used to be just about the family; our family, the cosa nostra; then our state or our religion ... but with global trade and global communication grows global empathy.

New forms of pragmatism need to be found to carry on living in Brooklyn.

If you want to abandon the concept of free will and ignore the need for moral competence, well fine, but by opting out of the social contract you are also opting out of the protection of The Leviathan... and I don't fancy your chances much.




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13-06-2016, 12:51 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(13-06-2016 12:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Okay so, if this devolves into a shit slinging fest, I'm not even going to bother replying. I've had so much trouble with other people, just trying to express my concern over this case.

Let me just lay out how I feel, then we can discuss my reasoning, if it isn't already clear. I feel bad for Brock Turner, as I feel bad for anyone who's basically bound to the laws of society. I feel bad that a person has their life ruined, that their reputation is in shambles, that hey can't compete in the Olympics when they were an Olympic hopeful. I feel bad for people who commit a crime, no matter how severe, and basically have the law inflicting severe punishments on them. As a matter of fact, I feel happy when people get away with serious crimes.

I'm not trying to fuck with you, as a lot of people have thought when I've brought up this point before. Ultimately I feel that reality is deterministic, I believe that people will commit crimes because the universe is a naturally chaotic place. To be mad at people who commit crimes is ultimately to be mad at the natural chaotic order of the universe. That's immature.

The justice system doesn't work, regardless. It's pure pragmatism. We put people in jail because there's an existential dilemma in our society; we have to live with one another and we have to make society work among the chaos. That is the point of the justice system. Not to mention that our punitive justice system is archaic and draconian. We're caging people like animals, and in a lot of cases we hate people, because they're the other. They're the "them" in our pack of society. That mentality saddens me to the deepest existential core of my being. I believe we're all people, it makes me sad when I see people's one life get squandered.

There's many who don't get my point of view, and I have tried to explain it to people before, my dad got upset and didn't really want to listen to me. He said that he believes that if someone commits this sort of crime that their life deserves to be ruined. What right does one person have to assert total control over another human being? I think that it's sad, but this self righteousness arises out of an illusion of consciousness. We perceive ourselves to have free will, which is false. We're ultimately governed by the same forces that pull a rock down a hill.

It's amazing to me, that through those forces I can do the things I do, but ultimately it's a program, it's a computer. It may sound like I'm trying to excuse someone for their "biological urge to rape", well, actually yes, I suppose you could look at it that way. Because if that's the sort of brain that a person has developed, and they don't work along the same lines of morality that someone else has, then you can't blame them, you shouldn't blame anyone really. Because that is simply the way things work.

Let me be clearer about my ideas on free will. It's an illusion of consciousness, that comes from being self aware of our own existence. We think that because we're aware of our own existence that we have some sort of control over it, that we're not basically biological robots that have been programmed in our DNA to feel and think the way we do. No, I mentioned in paragraph 3 why I feel this is important. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I really have had some bad experiences with this topic, I got banned from a feminist forum on facebook for trying to make this argument, my own dad got really mad at me for saying this. I think it's sad, because I'm dead fucking serious about this.

Allow me to point out where you are going wrong.

"Brooklyn is not expanding"

I recommend Steven Pinker's Blank Slate (there's a YouTube audiobook somewhere) and anything that Dan Dennett has produced regarding Free Will as Moral Competence.

To give you some hope, I'll start by agreeing with you...

I too am an existential nihilist. Actually, Absurdist would be closer to the mark (as Girly pointed out to me once or twice).

So why would someone who knows that in the long, long term nothing really matters (nothing really matters to me... any way the winds blows) buy into the Social Contract and sign away their freedoms for the sake of temporal societal cohesion?

... because Brooklyn is not expanding.





And while I wouldn't say I feel bad for Brock Turner (due to his lack of remorse and his obvious attempt to capitalise on his 'entitlement') I can go as far as saying that I can empathise to a degree.

I know what it's like to lose control.

I last lost my temper when I was 8 years old. I lost it with a boy in the playground at school. We bumped into each other as I was about to make a triumphal touch-down and I skidded along the asphalt ... on my face ... blood everywhere.

The ferocity of my retribution scared me even as I was pummeling him. Yes, the retribution felt divine but I vowed never to do it again.

I've faked anger a few times since in order to make a point or as a power-tactic but I was in full control.

I know there is a switch that can be flipped and I know there is a "in case of emergency" sticker on the switch.

I have installed a 'dimmer' system. I have the App and the control software. It's the control I need when stepping onto the stage to earn my living ... just enough adrenaline to take control of the room but not too much to trigger the flight / fight / freeze instinct.

More relevant to the case is lust. If you have not felt it, and I mean real, intense, animalistic lust, I recommend it but like anger and fear, it's advisable to first experiment with it under adult supervision in a controlled environment.

My most recent experience with this was late last year.

X-rated bit:
My ex-flat mate, K, invited me over to her place for some fun. We are making love (slow, tender stuff) and her new flat mate, J, wanted to spice things up so she starts vigorously masturbating and well, y'know. She then straddles K and we kiss, intensely, and she moves my hand in between her legs and whispers "Go on".

I'm bad at reading signals so I have to be 100% certain. I hesitated for a second while I checked and double checked all the stop/go 'consent' signals and then flipped the switch!

The next hour was pure animal... pure rhapsody!

The reason why the 'free will illusion' matters is because of that stop/go control software ... it's about moral competence.

Brock Turner either did not have the control software uploaded or it temporarily stopped working ... for that he has my sympathy. I hope the latter never happens to me.

His disregard for the concept of 'consent' or even 'consent under duress' can be understood if he too was chemically impaired. Understood but not forgiven.

But not have the Remorse-program installed: that's what disgusts everyone. It makes him dangerous to everyone around him (although he may well get a job on Wall Street).

There was no remorse, no contrition and not even an apology.

So fuck him. Let him rot in jail for the rest of his life. And fuck the system that says he doesn't have to.

We have evolved the controls (consent, stop/go, justice, retribution) to enforce the social contract.

Yes, the Universe is expanding but Brooklyn isn't.

(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  The justice system doesn't work, regardless. It's pure pragmatism.

From a distance, Brock Turner is a silhouette of a man and so was his victim.

Brock Turner: "I'm just a rich boy, nobody loves me".
Judge: "He's just a rich boy, from a rich family. Spare him his life from this monstrosity."
Brock Turner: "Easy come, easy go. Will you let me go?"
Judge: "Bismillah, yes!"

Victim: "So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye?
So you think you can love me and leave me to die?
Oh, baby, can't do this to me, baby,
Just gotta get out, just gotta get right outta here."

He thought he could. Everyone else thinks otherwise.

The circle of empathy is growing.
Darwinian kin selection used to be just about the family; our family, the cosa nostra; then our state or our religion ... but with global trade and global communication grows global empathy.

New forms of pragmatism need to be found to carry on living in Brooklyn.

If you want to abandon the concept of free will and ignore the need for moral competence, well fine, but by opting out of the social contract you are also opting out of the protection of The Leviathan... amd I don't fancy your chances much.





DLJ showing, once again, why he is indeed the smartest man in the room. If only we could all be so eloquent, and with such brevity.

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13-06-2016, 02:24 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2016 02:37 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:30 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I talked with my mom and she says she thinks I have brilliant ideas, but I just need to word them in a way that doesn't offend others.


If your mother think so then it must be true. If only unenlightened heathens were capable of seeing your genius.

Quote: I'm not kidding, she said that, she thinks that I have good ideas, but it's just the way I word them that comes across wrong to people.

That's cool. Though I doubt that issue is with wording. It's your ideas that are troubling.
Quote:Idk I would, but people have called me so many names, and treated me like such garbage, I don't really have much respect for the people of this forum anymore.


You're treated exactly as deserved. With contempt that your posts earned.

Quote: You seem nice though, I respect people who are nice to me. And don't turn around and give me that shit "ohhhh I don't want your respect", you don't seem like the sort of person who'd do that, but some of the vindictive shit I've seen on this forum has lead me to believe that a lot of people here would say something like that. I like people when they're nice though.


Don't know about Dom but I indeed don't need or want your respect. Getting such from rape apologist would be shamefull.

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