I feel bad for Brock Turner
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12-06-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:01 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 06:57 AM)julep Wrote:  So you're okay with consequences for everybody but the criminal and have empathy for criminals rather than victims. I vehemently disagree.

If you decide to rape someone, I hope the negative consequences for you personally are swift, severe, and permanent.
You've gotta be kidding me with this. So you're accusing me of being a potential rapist?

You're a human being, as am I: therefore, you/we are potential rapists, murderers, thieves, and swindlers, as well as potential victims of all of these crimes, as well as potential heroes/rescuers/crime preventers. In the OP you expressed admiration for people who get away with their crimes, and your sympathies were focused exclusively on the rapist. Does any of that make it likely that you'll rape? I'm not making that statement at all.

All I am saying if you do wind up raping somebody, I'm not going to be expressing sympathy for you, and I will hope you receive the maximum negative consequences of having committed that crime.
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12-06-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:30 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 07:07 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Well, to be honest, I feel worse for criminals because they're more demonized and punished than people who are victims of their crimes.

You think the victims should be demonized and punished as much as the criminals? I'm really hoping that just didn't come out the way you intended it. Consider

Quote:It's sort of ironic to me, because in the grand scheme of things there is no laws that govern everyone's mind,

I disagree. We do not yet fully understand how the brain works but there's no evidence that it isn't following laws of physics and chemistry.

Quote:criminals do the things they do and I am actually sort of happy when they get away with it sometimes. I like seeing people defy the standards set in place by the majority, I like seeing people overcome the giant machine that they're in the middle of, throw a wrench in it's gears and see it malfunction. I think to be conscious is ultimately to be trapped in an existential nightmare, like the guy in the book the stranger.

There might be "crimes" for which I'd agree with that but rape is not one of them. Anybody who inflicts harm on another for their own personal pleasure needs to learn that such actions are not acceptable and will have consequences.
Um, no. I didn't say a victim should be demonized as much as a criminal. Sorry, this is exhausting, I am gonna go make myself some coffee, I can't even respond to the rest of this right now. It's hard to push myself to read it.
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12-06-2016, 07:34 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:29 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 07:27 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I'm lacking in empathy? I actually feel very passionately for other people.

If you worry more about the criminals rather than the victims and would enjoy it if a criminal killed someone and got away with it, then yes, you are lacking in empathy.
Go read the book The Stranger.
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12-06-2016, 07:42 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:34 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 07:29 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  If you worry more about the criminals rather than the victims and would enjoy it if a criminal killed someone and got away with it, then yes, you are lacking in empathy.
Go read the book The Stranger.

No, I'm not going to read a whole book. If you are too bored to construct an argument, why should I bother?

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12-06-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Okay so, if this devolves into a shit slinging fest, I'm not even going to bother replying. I've had so much trouble with other people, just trying to express my concern over this case.

Let me just lay out how I feel, then we can discuss my reasoning, if it isn't already clear. I feel bad for Brock Turner, as I feel bad for anyone who's basically bound to the laws of society. I feel bad that a person has their life ruined, that their reputation is in shambles, that hey can't compete in the Olympics when they were an Olympic hopeful. I feel bad for people who commit a crime, no matter how severe, and basically have the law inflicting severe punishments on them. As a matter of fact, I feel happy when people get away with serious crimes.

I'm not trying to fuck with you, as a lot of people have thought when I've brought up this point before. Ultimately I feel that reality is deterministic, I believe that people will commit crimes because the universe is a naturally chaotic place. To be mad at people who commit crimes is ultimately to be mad at the natural chaotic order of the universe. That's immature.

The justice system doesn't work, regardless. It's pure pragmatism. We put people in jail because there's an existential dilemma in our society; we have to live with one another and we have to make society work among the chaos. That is the point of the justice system. Not to mention that our punitive justice system is archaic and draconian. We're caging people like animals, and in a lot of cases we hate people, because they're the other. They're the "them" in our pack of society. That mentality saddens me to the deepest existential core of my being. I believe we're all people, it makes me sad when I see people's one life get squandered.

There's many who don't get my point of view, and I have tried to explain it to people before, my dad got upset and didn't really want to listen to me. He said that he believes that if someone commits this sort of crime that their life deserves to be ruined. What right does one person have to assert total control over another human being? I think that it's sad, but this self righteousness arises out of an illusion of consciousness. We perceive ourselves to have free will, which is false. We're ultimately governed by the same forces that pull a rock down a hill.

It's amazing to me, that through those forces I can do the things I do, but ultimately it's a program, it's a computer. It may sound like I'm trying to excuse someone for their "biological urge to rape", well, actually yes, I suppose you could look at it that way. Because if that's the sort of brain that a person has developed, and they don't work along the same lines of morality that someone else has, then you can't blame them, you shouldn't blame anyone really. Because that is simply the way things work.

Let me be clearer about my ideas on free will. It's an illusion of consciousness, that comes from being self aware of our own existence. We think that because we're aware of our own existence that we have some sort of control over it, that we're not basically biological robots that have been programmed in our DNA to feel and think the way we do. No, I mentioned in paragraph 3 why I feel this is important. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I really have had some bad experiences with this topic, I got banned from a feminist forum on facebook for trying to make this argument, my own dad got really mad at me for saying this. I think it's sad, because I'm dead fucking serious about this.

You are about 500 years out of date. There was a time in human society, Western Society, when a male of our species could be expected to have his way with any woman who wasn't in the presence of her husband or brother or any protecting presence. If you feel that you have the right to rape a young woman because she cannot protect herself, I hope you get caught and don't have a daddy that says it would be horrible if you were expected to pay for your crime. I was a feminist before the term was invented I believe.
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12-06-2016, 08:14 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:07 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Well, to be honest, I feel worse for criminals because they're more demonized and punished than people who are victims of their crimes.

Demonized? Also it's only logical that they are punished more than victim of their crime. Victim was already hurt and innocence shouldn't be punished in the first place.

Quote: It's sort of ironic to me, because in the grand scheme of things there is no laws that govern everyone's mind, criminals do the things they do and I am actually sort of happy when they get away with it sometimes.


There may be no such laws but being happy for criminals going unpunished is a sign of sick mind.

Quote: I like seeing people defy the standards set in place by the majority, I like seeing people overcome the giant machine that they're in the middle of, throw a wrench in it's gears and see it malfunction.


Must be so cool to watching murderer going away with his deed, it's so rebeliuos. Fuck the oppresive system (and victims).


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12-06-2016, 08:17 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:19 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 07:04 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  You realize this is an existential statement, not a question. Right?

Nope, it's not a statement of any kid, let alone the existential one. It is a simple question, and you seem to be dodging it.

If you got confused by my wording, presumed subject in my question is not a generic rape victim, it is you , mittens deluxe.

Let me refraze my question...

If you personally got raped , would you report your rapist to the police?

I am guessing my question will go unanswered?

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12-06-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 07:42 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 07:34 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Go read the book The Stranger.

No, I'm not going to read a whole book. If you are too bored to construct an argument, why should I bother?
It's one of the most highly rated books of all time, it won a Nobel prize. It's by Albert Camus.
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12-06-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 08:18 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 07:42 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  No, I'm not going to read a whole book. If you are too bored to construct an argument, why should I bother?
It's one of the most highly rated books of all time, it won a Nobel prize. It's by Albert Camus.
So? Camus isn't some kind of ultimate authority.

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12-06-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
My question is why? What even justifies sympathy for him? If you get caught doing some bad shit, you should be punished for it.

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