I feel bad for Brock Turner
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09-09-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(09-09-2016 03:40 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(08-09-2016 09:08 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Westboro Baptist Church is protected in their protests. They may not be carrying guns (but they may be) but their protests are intimidating and scary.

I beg to differ Anjele. Carrying weapons makes a major, and fundamental difference to the threats of protesters—and the risks of them following through with violent acts. It creates increased fears in the (possibly undeserving) subjects of the protest, and emphasises—even psychologically—the hoped-for "power" of the (often illegal) protesters over their subjects.

Quote:How peaceable is it to demonstrate outside a funeral with signs that declare the end times, god's hatred for 'fags', and all the other things they spew?

Words are just words, and never killed anyone. Yes, they can be extremely crude and offensive and antisocial, but not so destructive as a 9mm bullet.

And as I asked earlier, can anybody guarantee that either these armed protesters were not carrying any ammunition on their person, or that their weapons were not locked and loaded? Would you Anjele?

You can beg to differ all you want. The guys demonstrating are open carrying. You can see they are armed. How about the demonstrators who may not be displaying easily hidden weapons? Can you tell me, SYZ, that other demonstrators aren't armed?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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10-09-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(09-09-2016 04:04 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You can beg to differ all you want. The guys demonstrating are open carrying. You can see they are armed. How about the demonstrators who may not be displaying easily hidden weapons? Can you tell me, SYZ, that other demonstrators aren't armed?

The issue is not whether or not they are armed, concealed or openly, but whether or not they are doing so for the express purpose of intimidating someone.

That's what moves it from the realm of protected 1st and 2nd amendment rights into the realm of crime.

The Phelpses, for all their douchebaggery, are always extremely careful not to violate the law as they tiptoe along it -- most of them are lawyers, in fact.

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10-09-2016, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2016 12:31 PM by Anjele.)
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(10-09-2016 12:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(09-09-2016 04:04 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You can beg to differ all you want. The guys demonstrating are open carrying. You can see they are armed. How about the demonstrators who may not be displaying easily hidden weapons? Can you tell me, SYZ, that other demonstrators aren't armed?

The issue is not whether or not they are armed, concealed or openly, but whether or not they are doing so for the express purpose of intimidating someone.

That's what moves it from the realm of protected 1st and 2nd amendment rights into the realm of crime.

The Phelpses, for all their douchebaggery, are always extremely careful not to violate the law as they tiptoe along it -- most of them are lawyers, in fact.

If the protestors in front of Brock Turner's house were/are breaking the law they will be disbursed if not charged with a crime. So far, I haven't seen that happen.

You don't think WBC's intent is to intimidate? How so?

Surely you know that there are other methods of intimidation. A classic mechanical weapon isn't required...words and actions can be enough.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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10-09-2016, 07:30 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(10-09-2016 12:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The issue is not whether or not they are armed, concealed or openly, but whether or not they are doing so for the express purpose of intimidating someone. [...]

And this is exactly the point that Anjele is choosing to ignore. The threat of a lethal attack where none is necessary or legally sanctioned. Concealed and/or open carry is not the issue in this case; a concealed weapon can be exposed in seconds.

I'm surprised that the local state laws don't prohibit the open carrying of weapons for the express purpose of intimidation—which is also at odds with the 2nd Amendment.

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10-09-2016, 07:37 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(10-09-2016 12:27 PM)Anjele Wrote:  If the protestors in front of Brock Turner's house were/are breaking the law they will be disbursed if not charged with a crime. So far, I haven't seen that happen.

You don't think WBC's intent is to intimidate? How so?

Surely you know that there are other methods of intimidation. A classic mechanical weapon isn't required...words and actions can be enough.

You're still trying to redirect the thrust of this particular scenario. Westboro church has nothing to do with this; why do you keep mentioning them?

And now you're contradicting yourself? You now say "mechanical weapons" IE guns are not required to make a point—having already said that you agree with them being utilised outside the Turner's home.

So... guns are OK or no, they're inappropriate? Huh

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10-09-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(10-09-2016 07:30 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-09-2016 12:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The issue is not whether or not they are armed, concealed or openly, but whether or not they are doing so for the express purpose of intimidating someone. [...]

And this is exactly the point that Anjele is choosing to ignore. The threat of a lethal attack where none is necessary or legally sanctioned. Concealed and/or open carry is not the issue in this case; a concealed weapon can be exposed in seconds.

I'm surprised that the local state laws don't prohibit the open carrying of weapons for the express purpose of intimidation—which is also at odds with the 2nd Amendment.

Do not tell me what I am choosing to do or not do.

I don't agree with your assessment of the situation. That's the issue you have with me.

And RS was talking about intimidation...not necessarily the use of deadly force.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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10-09-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(10-09-2016 07:37 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-09-2016 12:27 PM)Anjele Wrote:  If the protestors in front of Brock Turner's house were/are breaking the law they will be disbursed if not charged with a crime. So far, I haven't seen that happen.

You don't think WBC's intent is to intimidate? How so?

Surely you know that there are other methods of intimidation. A classic mechanical weapon isn't required...words and actions can be enough.

You're still trying to redirect the thrust of this particular scenario. Westboro church has nothing to do with this; why do you keep mentioning them?

And now you're contradicting yourself? You now say "mechanical weapons" IE guns are not required to make a point—having already said that you agree with them being utilised outside the Turner's home.

So... guns are OK or no, they're inappropriate? Huh

Guns - mechanical weapons - aren't the only things that can intimidate people. RS brought up that WBC doesn't open carry when they demonstrate...that doesn't mean they aren't intimidating.

I am not contradicting myself.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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11-09-2016, 04:18 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(10-09-2016 07:52 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(10-09-2016 07:37 PM)SYZ Wrote:  You're still trying to redirect the thrust of this particular scenario. Westboro church has nothing to do with this; why do you keep mentioning them?

And now you're contradicting yourself? You now say "mechanical weapons" IE guns are not required to make a point—having already said that you agree with them being utilised outside the Turner's home.

So... guns are OK or no, they're inappropriate? Huh

Guns - mechanical weapons - aren't the only things that can intimidate people. RS brought up that WBC doesn't open carry when they demonstrate...that doesn't mean they aren't intimidating.

I am not contradicting myself.

WBC is annoying and harassing, but they're not intimidating... indeed, they almost always have children among their ranks, because they're afraid of retaliation by people who are annoyed by them. They are not threatening violence, except by distant proxy: "god's gunna gitcha! Sez so right in mah book!"

My office was literally just down the street from their "church" building, and they held protests weekly right in front of my building's entrance (on the corner between my building and the capitol building... some genuis decided to make our building's entrance face the corner where the capitol was, so we had to walk past any group trying to make themselves heard in sight of the state legislators). Most people just laughed at them, or said "what assholes!" My field team partner, with whom I usually walked to lunch right past the group, was also an atheist, and we'd often stop to thank them for the good work they were doing to promote atheism.

And while I agree with you in loose principle, that telling people they're going to a lake of fire to be tortured for all eternity for supporting the freedom of their fellow Americans (or themselves) to commit sodomy is a form of manipulative intimidation, their message is not aimed at anyone in particular and is so generic in our religious culture as to hardly be noteworthy.

If the Phelpses were standing in front of the personal homes of individual gay people for the express purpose of trying to frighten them, then yes I would equate the two groups.

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11-09-2016, 05:05 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 04:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(10-09-2016 07:52 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Guns - mechanical weapons - aren't the only things that can intimidate people. RS brought up that WBC doesn't open carry when they demonstrate...that doesn't mean they aren't intimidating.

I am not contradicting myself.

WBC is annoying and harassing, but they're not intimidating... indeed, they almost always have children among their ranks, because they're afraid of retaliation by people who are annoyed by them. They are not threatening violence, except by distant proxy: "god's gunna gitcha! Sez so right in mah book!"

My office was literally just down the street from their "church" building, and they held protests weekly right in front of my building's entrance (on the corner between my building and the capitol building... some genuis decided to make our building's entrance face the corner where the capitol was, so we had to walk past any group trying to make themselves heard in sight of the state legislators). Most people just laughed at them, or said "what assholes!" My field team partner, with whom I usually walked to lunch right past the group, was also an atheist, and we'd often stop to thank them for the good work they were doing to promote atheism.

And while I agree with you in loose principle, that telling people they're going to a lake of fire to be tortured for all eternity for supporting the freedom of their fellow Americans (or themselves) to commit sodomy is a form of manipulative intimidation, their message is not aimed at anyone in particular and is so generic in our religious culture as to hardly be noteworthy.

If the Phelpses were standing in front of the personal homes of individual gay people for the express purpose of trying to frighten them, then yes I would equate the two groups.

Are you really going to say that there aren't people who are intimidated by the messages WBC conveys? How can you know what triggers everybody?

Picketing a funeral is not a generic move. It's a quite specifically targeted 'audience' for their actions.

My point is that the presence of firearms is not the only way to intimidate people. I am pretty sure you understand that.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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11-09-2016, 05:30 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
Pleast tell me this aint true.




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