I feel bad for Brock Turner
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11-09-2016, 05:46 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
If you'll re-read my post, I specifically pointed out that people can be intimidated by WBC's message. That's not what makes their message legal or illegal. Free speech means you're allowed to cause butt-hurt.

The difference is that WBC's message is not specifically targeting one person for the express purpose of making him feel fear, out of retaliation for something WBC thinks that specific person did wrong.

The guns are there to cause fear in one person. That has nothing to do with open carry.
The signs are there to cause fear in one person. That has nothing to do with free speech.

These are targeted terroristic actions, and have a clear and unequivocal intent. They are in no way compatible with some generic message, spoken to everyone, which might cause some people to be annoyed and others to be frightened. It's the difference between a Klan parade, rifles on their shoulders and carrying signs that say "white power rules this country" (which is protected free speech) and a bunch of Klansmen standing on the doorstep of a woman with a mixed-race kid with signs that say "we kill n***er lovers", and carrying guns. It floors me that people cannot or will not see the difference.

Now we all emotionally are a little glad that this privileged jackass of a rapist, who caused deep fear and lasting damage in his victim, might feel a fraction of what he inflicted. But that's retaliative, and it is not justice.

It's not right, and it reduces us to his moral level.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-09-2016, 05:58 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 05:46 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  If you'll re-read my post, I specifically pointed out that people can be intimidated by WBC's message. That's not what makes their message legal or illegal. Free speech means you're allowed to cause butt-hurt.

The difference is that WBC's message is not specifically targeting one person for the express purpose of making him feel fear, out of retaliation for something WBC thinks that specific person did wrong.

The guns are there to cause fear in one person. That has nothing to do with open carry.
The signs are there to cause fear in one person. That has nothing to do with free speech.

These are targeted terroristic actions, and have a clear and unequivocal intent. They are in no way compatible with some generic message, spoken to everyone, which might cause some people to be annoyed and others to be frightened. It's the difference between a Klan parade, rifles on their shoulders and carrying signs that say "white power rules this country" (which is protected free speech) and a bunch of Klansmen standing on the doorstep of a woman with a mixed-race kid with signs that say "we kill n***er lovers", and carrying guns. It floors me that people cannot or will not see the difference.

Now we all emotionally are a little glad that this privileged jackass of a rapist, who caused deep fear and lasting damage in his victim, might feel a fraction of what he inflicted. But that's retaliative, and it is not justice.

It's not right, and it reduces us to his moral level.

You don't think that picketing the funeral of a veteran is targeting a specific person or group of people? You don't think that going to a specific site (church or graveyard) is for the purpose of intimidating a specific target?

Both the protests at Brock Turner's parents' home and the protests, as above, by WBC aren't generic in their targets.

But, as long as they follow the law, it's allowed. And if someone decides to counter protest that's fine too, as long as the law is followed.

I have said before that I don't think this is the best way to instigate changes in the laws regarding the sentencing of people found guilty of sexual assault. But I understand the reason it's happening. If the protestors break the law then they should be charged.

As for moral high ground...that's a different issue completely.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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11-09-2016, 06:05 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 05:58 AM)Anjele Wrote:  You don't think that picketing the funeral of a veteran is targeting a specific person or group of people? You don't think that going to a specific site (church or graveyard) is for the purpose of intimidating a specific target?

Both the protests at Brock Turner's parents' home and the protests, as above, by WBC aren't generic in their targets.

But, as long as they follow the law, it's allowed. And if someone decides to counter protest that's fine too, as long as the law is followed.

I have said before that I don't think this is the best way to instigate changes in the laws regarding the sentencing of people found guilty of sexual assault. But I understand the reason it's happening. If the protestors break the law then they should be charged.

As for moral high ground...that's a different issue completely.

You think they're intimidating the families of the dead veterans? Or that their purpose is to intimidate and cause fear in those families? Really?

Their purpose is to make annoying little shits out of themselves for visibility's sake, so they can propagate their message that God is getting revenge on us all for disobedience to the Bible.

They're certainly preying on the emotions of the grieving families, which makes them a whole new layer of douchebag, sure, but they're not there to intimidate them.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-09-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 06:05 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(11-09-2016 05:58 AM)Anjele Wrote:  You don't think that picketing the funeral of a veteran is targeting a specific person or group of people? You don't think that going to a specific site (church or graveyard) is for the purpose of intimidating a specific target?

Both the protests at Brock Turner's parents' home and the protests, as above, by WBC aren't generic in their targets.

But, as long as they follow the law, it's allowed. And if someone decides to counter protest that's fine too, as long as the law is followed.

I have said before that I don't think this is the best way to instigate changes in the laws regarding the sentencing of people found guilty of sexual assault. But I understand the reason it's happening. If the protestors break the law then they should be charged.

As for moral high ground...that's a different issue completely.

You think they're intimidating the families of the dead veterans? Or that their purpose is to intimidate and cause fear in those families? Really?

Their purpose is to make annoying little shits out of themselves for visibility's sake, so they can propagate their message that God is getting revenge on us all for disobedience to the Bible.

They're certainly preying on the emotions of the grieving families, which makes them a whole new layer of douchebag, sure, but they're not there to intimidate them.

You know better than I about the intentions of WBC then. It's amazing to me how many people here know the minds of others.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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11-09-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 06:13 AM)Anjele Wrote:  You know better than I about the intentions of WBC then. It's amazing to me how many people here know the minds of others.

WBC is an analogy here, and an imperfect one. I could see them getting done for intimidation too. In this case (Brock Turner) it's *so* overt that I don't think it can be argued any other way than that it *is* intimidation. WBC *might* get away with some legalistic defence if they were ever charged.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-09-2016, 03:13 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 05:05 AM)Anjele Wrote:  [...] My point is that the presence of firearms is not the only way to intimidate people. I am pretty sure you understand that.

Uh... I really think you're being a bit disingenuous with your repeated claim that "the presence of firearms is not the only way to intimidate people".

Of course it's not—we all agree with that. But... the point you seem to be missing is the potential for death and the fear that potential crates in the subjects of these armed protests.

And of course offensive, confrontational banners can be intimidating, but there's a chasm of difference between the intimidation level of a banner and that of a firearm. Do you not see that?

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11-09-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 05:46 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  [...] These are targeted terroristic actions, and have a clear and unequivocal intent. They are in no way compatible with some generic message, spoken to everyone, which might cause some people to be annoyed and others to be frightened. It's the difference between a Klan parade, rifles on their shoulders and carrying signs that say "white power rules this country" (which is protected free speech) and a bunch of Klansmen standing on the doorstep of a woman with a mixed-race kid with signs that say "we kill n***er lovers", and carrying guns. It floors me that people cannot or will not see the difference.

Now we all emotionally are a little glad that this privileged jackass of a rapist, who caused deep fear and lasting damage in his victim, might feel a fraction of what he inflicted. But that's retaliative, and it is not justice.

It's not right, and it reduces us to his moral level.

Extremely well considered response, with which I agree totally. Yes, Turner committed a reprehensible criminal act, and—in my humble opinion—should've been given at least a non-parole sentence of 10 years imprisonment (and which should be a mandatory sentence for rape).

At the same time I absolutely disagree with people taking to the streets with lethal weapons in a thinly-veiled attempt to enforce their own perverted sense of "justice" by intimidating those convicted of criminal acts. If we don't accept and rely upon the decisions of our courts, then we may as well return to the days of lynch mobs meting out their own justice.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-09-2016, 03:52 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
You are right...SYZ and RS are correct.

My perspective is my perspective and is wrong.

Are we done here?

BTW, I now feel bullied and intimidated.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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11-09-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 05:46 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The difference is that WBC's message is not specifically targeting one person for the express purpose of making him feel fear, out of retaliation for something WBC thinks that specific person did wrong.

The guns are there to cause fear in one person. That has nothing to do with open carry.
The signs are there to cause fear in one person. That has nothing to do with free speech.

The WBC is there to cause fear in a group of fags and incite fag haters. And pretty sure they always get local permits first. So what if the Brock demonstrators added Ethan "Affluenza" Couch to their signs and targeted the Affluenza defense and obtained local permits to demonstrate. They're no longer targeting a single person but a group of spoiled rich brats.

#sigh
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12-09-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(11-09-2016 03:52 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You are right...SYZ and RS are correct.

My perspective is my perspective and is wrong.

Are we done here?

BTW, I now feel bullied and intimidated.

Undecided I'm sure no one had that intention.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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