I feel bad for Brock Turner
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12-06-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 10:28 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 10:16 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  No, here's the moral of the story. I empathize with him because I know what ostracisation is like. I've been through a lot of it and I know that one arbitrary miss step can send you knocking on the door of misfortune.

Labelling an act of rape as an arbitrary misstep is something I can not reconcile.

Quote:It was one moment, where he made an arbitrary decision and he could have gone on with his life not having made that decision and literally nothing would have happened. ...

Right, if he had not committed a crime he should not be facing consequences for it. That hardly supports your position.
But I'm exactly right.
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12-06-2016, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2016 11:34 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 10:16 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  No, here's the moral of the story. I empathize with him because I know what ostracisation is like. I've been through a lot of it and I know that one arbitrary miss step can send you knocking on the door of misfortune. It was one moment, where he made an arbitrary decision and he could have gone on with his life not having made that decision and literally nothing would have happened. I know what it feels like to make missteps, I've never done anything nearly as harmful as he's done, but none the less I feel empathy for him. I don't know why I'm being persecuted for feeling empathy for another person, that's fucking psychotic of you.

Uh, no. He didn't just slip, fall over, and found his hand magically shoved up her vagina. This was quite a bit more than a misstep. Know why? Because when he got caught, he tried to run away; he knew what he was doing was wrong.

That's not to say that there can't be instances of rape where there are genuine mitigating circumstances. Such as statutory rape between a consenting couple who just so happen to be 17 and 19 years old. But I've yet to see anything resembling that in this story. He should have known better, his reaction to being found out indicated that he did know better. This is why he was convicted of intent to rape, because had he not been interrupted, he most assuredly wouldn't have stopped with just his fingers.


(12-06-2016 10:16 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I feel disturbed at rape, it's not like I don't feel anything for rape victims. It was difficult for me to tell what I feel for rape victims, because honestly it's a complex issue. But I guess you could say it's disturbing to me, because it's certainly doesn't make me feel happy that a person got raped. I remember watching some interviews with rape victims, it was disturbing to me, because ultimately it makes you think about the fact that the world can be a very dangerous place, it makes you think about what that person's life may be like. Ultimately that's what I believe having empathy is about and why I actually have a whole lot of empathy.

Except that all of that rings incredibly hollow in light of you going to bat hard for the rapist, not the victim. Especially here, in this case. You didn't have to pick this rapist if you wanted to champion feeling empathy for social ostracism. Indeed, perhaps you should have backed any of the dozens or hundreds of entirely innocent people who find themselves the victims of witch hunts, rather than a rapist who made news for receiving an incredibly lenient sentence; in other words, someone who barely got what many others think he justly deserved.

You sure know how to fucking pick a winner...


(12-06-2016 10:16 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  As human beings, I believe most of us can pick up on what other people feel, or at least empathize with others and put ourselves in their shoes. I know that there's a bunch of times in my life where I have felt bad for someone else, and I know that I think very deeply about philosophical issues, which - shame on you - you squander in your portrayal of me completely. That hurts me, but that's also the sort of thing that I see happening to Brock Turner. He's hated, he's not getting the full extent of justice of the law, but his life is in one way or another ruined. That's the same thing that happened to the stranger in Albert Camus's book "the stranger". Just because of a moment of complete arbitrary thought, and the sun, he decided that he would kill this person which he could have easily not done.

It wasn't arbitrary, Turner wasn't a victim. No, he victimized someone else, and every time you seemingly ignore that to stroke the ego of the convicted rapist. The person who, in this instance, created the victim. His actions victimized another, because he's a rapist. It wasn't just an accident. He certainly didn't get justice all right, because 3 months in prison and not being able to go to the Olympics pales in comparison to being the victim of rape.

Rape.

RAPE!

He is a rapist! Not only that, but he almost got away with it! Once he got caught, he tried to flee! He knew what he was doing was wrong, and had he not been stopped, he'd have followed up his handiwork with his dick. He is a rapist. He committed rape. He victimized another person, took advantage of them, betrayed that trust in every way imaginable.

What part of this do you not fucking understand? There were no mitigating circumstances here. He is a rapist, and not by accident or happenstance or circumstances otherwise beyond his control.

And if he really couldn't stop himself, because determinism, then he needs to be locked away for life instead of getting just 3~6 months. If he's entirely incapable of not committing rape, then he doesn't deserve to be a part of the general population; he represents far too great a risk to his fellow citizens. In which case, this is still an extreme case of injustice, where the victim of the rape is still getting the short end of the stick.


(12-06-2016 10:16 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  It's tragic, I feel disturbed by the whole situation. You don't see me sitting here saying 'yeaaaaah hahaha he only got 3 months woooo". No, I feel disturbed by this world and I want what's best for him, I want what's best for the rape victim, but we're not fucking talking about her and honestly, I don't know her. I relate more to Brock Turner than I do her, because of what he's going through with ostracisation and demonetization. Yes, I'd probably feel bad if it was someone I knew who had that happen to them, but that's just the way people fucking work. I don't even know the fucking girl who got raped, so why am I expected to all of a sudden just say "ohhhhh sorrow, ohhh misery, I hate the wretched rapist and feel so much passion and empathy for the rape victim ohhhhh ohhhhhhhhhh". It doesn't fucking work like that.

Which, for the record, is entirely justifiable because he's a convicted rapist. Because he raped someone. You know. Rape.

If you can't be ostracized for rape, what can you be ostracized for?

Also, for the record, you don't fucking know either of them. Yet you keep coming back to how you empathize with the rapist, but every time the victim come up, you deflect and feign ignorance. That looks incredibly poor, and makes everything else you say in regard to having empathy for 'everyone' ring hollow; because you keep focusing on the perpetrator and not the victim. You have mounds of empathy for someone being ostracized for the rape they committed, but the actual victim comes up short with a 'I don't know her'. Real fucking class act.

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12-06-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 06:25 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 05:50 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  The justice system doesn't work, regardless. It's pure pragmatism.

If it was, it would probably work better. Pragmatism is great, especially in comparison to revenge or punitive punishment.
It's the only solution. In an ideal world we wouldn't have to punish anyone, because we'd all live in a society where everyone is just happy to live with each other and loves each other and doesn't hurt each other. That would be the ideal, but tragically there's some people who break the mold and choose to go outside of the norm, and consequentially because of the pragmatism of keeping other people's live safe, we have to lock these people up. We have to create an other, two opposing groups of people. One group of people is the bad guy, one group of people is the good guy. This is the basis of every war and conflict in human history. I hate war, I hate it when people kill other people because of those reasons. So unfortunately, one person has to suffer at our hands, it's basically saying since this person was miserable, we have to make this other person miserable. That sort of eye for an eye mentality sucks, it's worthless and immature and only represents the stupid school yard "I'm gonna fight you" mentality. It's nauseating, so yes, I will champion Brock Turner, he's broken the mold and made people fucking outraged, because they realize deep down that their justice is a an arbitrary and stupid one, they were denied their pathetic and petulant crybaby entitled want for someone to have their life stripped from them. So you can see how I would sympathize with him, and not really care about the rape victim. He's now a second rape victim.

Brock's life probably is fucked now, by the witch hunt and justice system. He'll forever be registered as a sex offender and everyone will remember it.
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12-06-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 11:53 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 06:25 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If it was, it would probably work better. Pragmatism is great, especially in comparison to revenge or punitive punishment.
It's the only solution. In an ideal world we wouldn't have to punish anyone, because we'd all live in a society where everyone is just happy to live with each other and loves each other and doesn't hurt each other. That would be the ideal, but tragically there's some people who break the mold and choose to go outside of the norm, and consequentially because of the pragmatism of keeping other people's live safe, we have to lock these people up. We have to create an other, two opposing groups of people. One group of people is the bad guy, one group of people is the good guy. This is the basis of every war and conflict in human history. I hate war, I hate it when people kill other people because of those reasons. So unfortunately, one person has to suffer at our hands, it's basically saying since this person was miserable, we have to make this other person miserable. That sort of eye for an eye mentality sucks, it's worthless and immature and only represents the stupid school yard "I'm gonna fight you" mentality. It's nauseating, so yes, I will champion Brock Turner, he's broken the mold and made people fucking outraged, because they realize deep down that their justice is a an arbitrary and stupid one, they were denied their pathetic and petulant crybaby entitled want for someone to have their life stripped from them. So you can see how I would sympathize with him, and not really care about the rape victim. He's now a second rape victim.

Brock's life probably is fucked now, by the witch hunt and justice system. He'll forever be registered as a sex offender and everyone will remember it.

So to you a rapist is just someone who goes outside the norm?

Some people prove they are dangerous and they need to be kept from others in order for the bulk of humanity to be safer.

His life is fucked up...he's the one that fucked it up. He is not a victim in any sense of the word.

Your perspective is seriously screwed up.

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12-06-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
I believe we're all victims of being alive. The fact that he's conscious and his mind somehow gave ways to the neural passages in has pathology to allow him to feel the urge to rape someone, he's suffering now for it. The concept of free will makes no sense to me, because it seems to say that we're all our own force of nature. No, we abide by the laws of nature and we're not just our own little entity floating around it like we were some god or something. I know it sounds a little bit contrived to be using that analogy on a forum like this, it almost seems like sort of a pun, but I'm saying that one thing or another led to him doing it. It happened, the same as a rock rolls down the hill. So we really can't blame him, he's an animal, we're all animals. I think that to blame someone for doing something is useless because they may not even care or get why it's wrong to do what they did.

I am intelligent enough to understand why he was wrong to do what he did, because I think that we should live in a society where people are safe. I'm not sure where the feeling of morality comes from, I guess it's just some sort of pathological feeling which arises from DNA, some people would say that we don't even have any morality which is why we need to be governed by religion. I say fuck all that, fuck religion and fuck the state, there is no way to determine people's morality, because people's morality is only good for the group. It fails to take into account the factors that may go into someone actually committing a crime, instead of preventing the crimes from happening in the first place. So yes, I do get some sort of enjoyment from seeing people get away with crimes, or even commit crimes (depending on if the crime was politically motivated or driven by sex and passion). Because what I see, is that a person who commits a crime purely based off of their passion to simply break the rules, I don't have a problem with that, and in fact I root for that, because the rules that we have in place are so stupidly fucked, I see no way I could possibly champion something like that. I don't give a fuck about the victim, she's immaterial to me. Maybe if I actually met her and got to know her I would actually care about her, I'm not saying that I'm the sort of person who doesn't give a shit about people in general, because I do, a lot actually. I make a good friend.
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12-06-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 10:55 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 10:28 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Right, if he had not committed a crime he should not be facing consequences for it. That hardly supports your position.
But I'm exactly right.

Being right on an irrelevant point is... irrelevant.

Reading your comments on the Turner case and the Orlando shooting it seems to me like you either have some highly inconsistent views or you are only able to empathize with specific groups. Either way, I agree with Anjele. Your perspective is seriously screwed up.

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12-06-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 12:12 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I think that to blame someone for doing something is useless because they may not even care or get why it's wrong to do what they did.

He needs to learn that actions have consequences so that it can be factored in to future decisions so that he doesn't repeat this kind of act. Ideally he will learn why it is wrong and start to care but even if he never does he still needs to learn that he can't do that. It is far from useless to try to prevent future rapes.

Quote:I don't give a fuck about the victim, she's immaterial to me. Maybe if I actually met her and got to know her I would actually care about her, I'm not saying that I'm the sort of person who doesn't give a shit about people in general, because I do, a lot actually. I make a good friend.

You may make a good friend but what you describe makes a poor member of a society.

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12-06-2016, 12:32 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 11:53 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  It's the only solution. In an ideal world we wouldn't have to punish anyone, because we'd all live in a society where everyone is just happy to live with each other and loves each other and doesn't hurt each other.


In ideal world scum like rapists or piece of trash wanting to coddle such people while don't giving shit about victims wouldn't exist.

Quote: That would be the ideal, but tragically there's some people who break the mold and choose to go outside of the norm, and consequentially because of the pragmatism of keeping other people's live safe, we have to lock these people up.

What's really tragic is ammount of compassion for the rapist and lack of it towards the victim.

Quote: We have to create an other, two opposing groups of people. One group of people is the bad guy, one group of people is the good guy.


He is the bad guy cause he is rapist not cause society need a bad guy for something.

Quote: So unfortunately, one person has to suffer at our hands, it's basically saying since this person was miserable, we have to make this other person miserable. That sort of eye for an eye mentality sucks, it's worthless and immature and only represents the stupid school yard "I'm gonna fight you" mentality. It's nauseating, so yes, I will champion Brock Turner, he's broken the mold and made people fucking outraged, because they realize deep down that their justice is a an arbitrary and stupid one, they were denied their pathetic and petulant crybaby entitled want for someone to have their life stripped from them.


I see victim suffering is immaterial to you. Do you even realize how disgusting you are? As for scum he brought suffering on himself.

Also how you think world would look if crime wouldn't be punished?

Quote: So you can see how I would sympathize with him, and not really care about the rape victim. He's now a second rape victim.


He is the second rape victim? You forgotten your meds today or something?

His sentence is lenient and life of victim wouldn't be the same for long time but it's he who is wronged?

Quote: Brock's life probably is fucked now, by the witch hunt and justice system. He'll forever be registered as a sex offender and everyone will remember it.

Tough shit. It's not like he is a victim in this.

As for witch hunt you're fucking disgusting.


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12-06-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 12:28 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-06-2016 12:12 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  I think that to blame someone for doing something is useless because they may not even care or get why it's wrong to do what they did.

He needs to learn that actions have consequences so that it can be factored in to future decisions so that he doesn't repeat this kind of act. Ideally he will learn why it is wrong and start to care but even if he never does he still needs to learn that he can't do that. It is far from useless to try to prevent future rapes.

Quote:I don't give a fuck about the victim, she's immaterial to me. Maybe if I actually met her and got to know her I would actually care about her, I'm not saying that I'm the sort of person who doesn't give a shit about people in general, because I do, a lot actually. I make a good friend.

You may make a good friend but what you describe makes a poor member of a society.
Well good, I'd like to say I'm a bad member of society, because otherwise it would be a bit out of character for me. I hate society, for one reason or another, I generally dislike people, and I am generally a very nihilistic person, who tries to find an existential point of view (ie, find some meaning even though there is none intrinsically). I really don't like life, but I like being comfortable and I like being happy, I like coming to interesting philosophical thoughts and I like listening to music and appreciating the aesthetic beauty of life. I just don't like society, I feel that it was unfair that i was even born in the first place and I heavily resent the fact that I was born into this world, but then I guess it's just something that I deal with in one way or another. I can't escape feeling like everything is pointless, it's one thing which I have battled with for years and I am only at a point now where the thought of that alone doesn't make me feel really distraught.
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12-06-2016, 12:36 PM
RE: I feel bad for Brock Turner
(12-06-2016 11:53 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Brock's life probably is fucked now, by the witch hunt and justice system. He'll forever be registered as a sex offender and everyone will remember it.

Shouldn't he? He was found guilty by a jury. Regardless of the judge's inane idea of jail time.

There was more than enough evidence to convict him. Of course he should have to register as a sex offender.

If you want to argue that people found guilty of violent sexual acts against anyone shouldn't have to register as a sex offender...that's an entirely different issue.


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