I finally told my mom
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02-06-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
good for you for coming out Thumbsup

is it a burden off your shoulders to just not have to keep it secret now?

be kind, be patient and just tell her (repeatedly if necessary) no thanks.


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02-06-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
Definitely a huge wait off my shoulder.

Think of like an atheist version of Pilgrim's Progress (that would be awesome btw), and the "burden" is called "religion".

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02-06-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Yep. Told my mom.

A couple reasons why I decided to finally stop putting it off:

1. to stop putting it off!
2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew. This is the book you get your morals from?
3. I wanted to be out with my mom first, so I can finally be out with everyone else.

How'd it go?

Waaaaay better than I thought. No tears. She listened to me give my "deconversion". I listened to her. And I wanna be clear, she's a very progressive mom. She said she's against organized religion. But she's very spiritual. She believes in miracles. She knows, KNOWS there is a God through personal experience. So yes, she used the combination of argument from personal experience and argument from miracles. But this was not a debate. I basically laid it out there. I probably could have gone after those problematic explanations, but I didn't. She said she does not condemn me, but she hopes I'll turn around some day.

I kept trying to tell her my view on God: I don't know if God exists, but if he does, I hope he doesn't care if I believe he exists.

She didn't really see that now. But I hope I got through somewhere.

Congratulations. Your conversation with your mom went a lot better than mine. We just don't talk about it at all. In fact, we don't talk all that much at all anymore.

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02-06-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew. This is the book you get your morals from?

Hate to be contrary and get off topic, but that's a horribly disingenuous statement. You are either lying about reading Judges 19-20 or you have severe reading comprehension problems.

Tell me how documenting an atrocity equates to that atrocity being morally acceptable? Or, the "go-by" for morality? Please show me how the Bible is condoning this behavior.

I mean... this atrocity caused a war... so... what exactly are you reading?

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02-06-2015, 02:09 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
Maybe he'd like a different, more up to date book to base his morals on, Kingsy. One in which people don't own other people... one in which it is not commonplace to offer up one's "trusted" slave like an animal, to knowinly be tortured and slaughtered. Trust must have been a cheap commodity back then.

Perhaps people get different things out of that book. Shy

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02-06-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(02-06-2015 01:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew. This is the book you get your morals from?

Hate to be contrary and get off topic, but that's a horribly disingenuous statement. You are either lying about reading Judges 19-20 or you have severe reading comprehension problems.

Tell me how documenting an atrocity equates to that atrocity being morally acceptable? Or, the "go-by" for morality? Please show me how the Bible is condoning this behavior.

I mean... this atrocity caused a war... so... what exactly are you reading?

You're right--the story in judges about the concubine being raped and cut into pieces was at the hands of the men of Gibeah. In my recollection, it doesn't specifically say and God said--here go and commit this atrocity. This story mimics the story in Genesis 19 (it appears to me to be a a doublet, although I have not researched this further). Maybe Mark Fulton, Inquistor, GWG, Bucky, or Robby can provide further commentary?

Anyway--my point is-- in the Genesis story, angels came down to see if there were 10 righteous men in Sodom. The Sodomite men wanted to *know them* and instead Lot offered his virgin daughters to the men. This action on Lot's part (i.e. protecting the angels by giving his daughters to the men) allowed him to be saved when God was destroying the city. The same idea of using women to pacify an angry mob happens in Judges... Just an observation...
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02-06-2015, 09:24 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(02-06-2015 01:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew. This is the book you get your morals from?

Hate to be contrary and get off topic, but that's a horribly disingenuous statement. You are either lying about reading Judges 19-20 or you have severe reading comprehension problems.

Tell me how documenting an atrocity equates to that atrocity being morally acceptable? Or, the "go-by" for morality? Please show me how the Bible is condoning this behavior.

I mean... this atrocity caused a war... so... what exactly are you reading?

I did say that I just started reading Judges. The fact that this event is at the end would mean that I haven't actually gotten to that part yet. My description was more general. Did not say whether the Bible condoned it or not. Although, that really doesn't matter. You should still take this story into consideration when debating whether or not we should allow school sanctioned Bible studies.

So the Bible doesn't condone that behavior you say? Okay, okay.

How about going to a village, whiping them out, except the young virgin girls. Keep them for yourself. I can only hope it was consentual. Although you just killed their families so I can't see how they'd be willing to comply.

Does the Bible condone this? I'd say yep (in Numbers and in Deuteronomy). Not only that but they gave a portion of the virgin girls to God (not exactly sure what He needed with them).

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02-06-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(02-06-2015 09:24 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 01:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hate to be contrary and get off topic, but that's a horribly disingenuous statement. You are either lying about reading Judges 19-20 or you have severe reading comprehension problems.

Tell me how documenting an atrocity equates to that atrocity being morally acceptable? Or, the "go-by" for morality? Please show me how the Bible is condoning this behavior.

I mean... this atrocity caused a war... so... what exactly are you reading?

I did say that I just started reading Judges. The fact that this event is at the end would mean that I haven't actually gotten to that part yet. My description was more general. Did not say whether the Bible condoned it or not. Although, that really doesn't matter. You should still take this story into consideration when debating whether or not we should allow school sanctioned Bible studies.

So the Bible doesn't condone that behavior you say? Okay, okay.

How about going to a village, whiping them out, except the young virgin girls. Keep them for yourself. I can only hope it was consentual. Although you just killed their families so I can't see how they'd be willing to comply.

Does the Bible condone this? I'd say yep (in Numbers and in Deuteronomy). Not only that but they gave a portion of the virgin girls to God (not exactly sure what He needed with them).

God does condone similar behavior in Genesis 19...
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03-06-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(02-06-2015 09:24 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 01:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hate to be contrary and get off topic, but that's a horribly disingenuous statement. You are either lying about reading Judges 19-20 or you have severe reading comprehension problems.

Tell me how documenting an atrocity equates to that atrocity being morally acceptable? Or, the "go-by" for morality? Please show me how the Bible is condoning this behavior.

I mean... this atrocity caused a war... so... what exactly are you reading?

I did say that I just started reading Judges. The fact that this event is at the end would mean that I haven't actually gotten to that part yet. My description was more general. Did not say whether the Bible condoned it or not. Although, that really doesn't matter. You should still take this story into consideration when debating whether or not we should allow school sanctioned Bible studies.

So the Bible doesn't condone that behavior you say? Okay, okay.

How about going to a village, whiping them out, except the young virgin girls. Keep them for yourself. I can only hope it was consentual. Although you just killed their families so I can't see how they'd be willing to comply.

Does the Bible condone this? I'd say yep (in Numbers and in Deuteronomy). Not only that but they gave a portion of the virgin girls to God (not exactly sure what He needed with them).

Yes, the Bible does condone these things (in similar places) as Jenny pointed out (another debate for another day).

However, I just pointed out what you said as an exercise in due diligence.

If you were in a real debate or addressing a different audience, you would have just struck a huge blow to your credibility and/or have been perceive negatively.

I point out things like this all the time to both theists and atheists... I'm one for having a debate based on honesty... and actual research.

On topic, I'm glad you had a good convo with your mom. I've had similar experiences with my ultra-conservative family when confessing some of my more liberal opinions.

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03-06-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 06:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  On topic, I'm glad you had a good convo with your mom. I've had similar experiences with my ultra-conservative family when confessing some of my more liberal opinions.

I don't think that thinking beyond a single book or doctrine is having "liberal opinions", Kingsy. If anything, I think it's just being independent.

Expressing it openly, I think, is owning up to a truth about one's self. It can be a difficult thing to do when there is a risk of acceptance. A very core essential is parental acceptance... we are really a grown up when we realize that with or without our parent's acceptance, we have to live for ourselves. Shy

If you don't piss off your parents, you can't hang with me ~ JC. Right Kingsy? Wink

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