I finally told my mom
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03-06-2015, 11:18 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 06:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 09:24 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  I did say that I just started reading Judges. The fact that this event is at the end would mean that I haven't actually gotten to that part yet. My description was more general. Did not say whether the Bible condoned it or not. Although, that really doesn't matter. You should still take this story into consideration when debating whether or not we should allow school sanctioned Bible studies.

So the Bible doesn't condone that behavior you say? Okay, okay.

How about going to a village, whiping them out, except the young virgin girls. Keep them for yourself. I can only hope it was consentual. Although you just killed their families so I can't see how they'd be willing to comply.

Does the Bible condone this? I'd say yep (in Numbers and in Deuteronomy). Not only that but they gave a portion of the virgin girls to God (not exactly sure what He needed with them).

Yes, the Bible does condone these things (in similar places) as Jenny pointed out (another debate for another day).

However, I just pointed out what you said as an exercise in due diligence.

If you were in a real debate or addressing a different audience, you would have just struck a huge blow to your credibility and/or have been perceive negatively.

I point out things like this all the time to both theists and atheists... I'm one for having a debate based on honesty... and actual research.

On topic, I'm glad you had a good convo with your mom. I've had similar experiences with my ultra-conservative family when confessing some of my more liberal opinions.

Facepalm

Look, at this point we're getting into an argument of semantics on what I said and what I didn't say. My original post says that I had just started reading Judges. "If this were a debate"? Bub, if this were a debate, I'd opt out right away. I have not read the material we'd be having a debate about. If someone said, "I'm about to read a book that apparently has flying unicorns in them", and I knew there wasn't, I'd be like, "Look, there's no flying unicorns, just read the book."

And if we really want to get down to it, the question of "moral condoning" is something I question as well. There's several spots where I question the guy who wrote the skeptic's annotated Bible; for instance he talks about Abimelech's actions. But most Christians I know, condemn his actions and believe the Bible paints him as a bad guy anyway, and as I'm reading, yes, he's clearly the antagonist. What's not clear however is whether God is okay with it. The Bible says that the reason Abimelech and Jotham is due to God's "evil spirit" He sent between them. But then God does punish the people who supported Abimelech over Jotham.

In the case of the concubine incident? I don't know, dude. I really can't enter a debate about that scene since I still haven't gotten to it. I bring it up because it was in the intro of the skeptic Bible. And I'm still curious as to what morals we're supposed to learn with it. I mean if you say that the Bible doesn't condone it, fine. But so far I have seen some horrible crap condoned (and even commanded) by God, that it woudn't surprise me.

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03-06-2015, 11:29 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2015 11:37 AM by jennybee.)
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 11:18 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 06:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes, the Bible does condone these things (in similar places) as Jenny pointed out (another debate for another day).

However, I just pointed out what you said as an exercise in due diligence.

If you were in a real debate or addressing a different audience, you would have just struck a huge blow to your credibility and/or have been perceive negatively.

I point out things like this all the time to both theists and atheists... I'm one for having a debate based on honesty... and actual research.

On topic, I'm glad you had a good convo with your mom. I've had similar experiences with my ultra-conservative family when confessing some of my more liberal opinions.

Facepalm

Look, at this point we're getting into an argument of semantics on what I said and what I didn't say. My original post says that I had just started reading Judges. "If this were a debate"? Bub, if this were a debate, I'd opt out right away. I have not read the material we'd be having a debate about. If someone said, "I'm about to read a book that apparently has flying unicorns in them", and I knew there wasn't, I'd be like, "Look, there's no flying unicorns, just read the book."

And if we really want to get down to it, the question of "moral condoning" is something I question as well. There's several spots where I question the guy who wrote the skeptic's annotated Bible; for instance he talks about Abimelech's actions. But most Christians I know, condemn his actions and believe the Bible paints him as a bad guy anyway, and as I'm reading, yes, he's clearly the antagonist. What's not clear however is whether God is okay with it. The Bible says that the reason Abimelech and Jotham is due to God's "evil spirit" He sent between them. But then God does punish the people who supported Abimelech over Jotham.

In the case of the concubine incident? I don't know, dude. I really can't enter a debate about that scene since I still haven't gotten to it. I bring it up because it was in the intro of the skeptic Bible. And I'm still curious as to what morals we're supposed to learn with it. I mean if you say that the Bible doesn't condone it, fine. But so far I have seen some horrible crap condoned (and even commanded) by God, that it woudn't surprise me.

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is very good. I am a huge Steve Wells fan. However, I would recommend picking up some scholarly books after you are through for a more in depth reading. I really like Bart Ehrman's The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction and The Bible Background Commentary for the O.T. and the N.T. The commentaries are written by Christian scholars but they are done in a legitimate scholarly fashion without the woo.
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03-06-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 11:29 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 11:18 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Facepalm

Look, at this point we're getting into an argument of semantics on what I said and what I didn't say. My original post says that I had just started reading Judges. "If this were a debate"? Bub, if this were a debate, I'd opt out right away. I have not read the material we'd be having a debate about. If someone said, "I'm about to read a book that apparently has flying unicorns in them", and I knew there wasn't, I'd be like, "Look, there's no flying unicorns, just read the book."

And if we really want to get down to it, the question of "moral condoning" is something I question as well. There's several spots where I question the guy who wrote the skeptic's annotated Bible; for instance he talks about Abimelech's actions. But most Christians I know, condemn his actions and believe the Bible paints him as a bad guy anyway, and as I'm reading, yes, he's clearly the antagonist. What's not clear however is whether God is okay with it. The Bible says that the reason Abimelech and Jotham is due to God's "evil spirit" He sent between them. But then God does punish the people who supported Abimelech over Jotham.

In the case of the concubine incident? I don't know, dude. I really can't enter a debate about that scene since I still haven't gotten to it. I bring it up because it was in the intro of the skeptic Bible. And I'm still curious as to what morals we're supposed to learn with it. I mean if you say that the Bible doesn't condone it, fine. But so far I have seen some horrible crap condoned (and even commanded) by God, that it woudn't surprise me.

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is very good. I am a huge Steve Wells fan. However, I would recommend picking up some scholarly books after you are through for a more in depth reading. I really like Bart Ehrman's The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction and The Bible Background Commentary for the O.T. and the N.T. They commentaries are written by Christian scholars but they are done in a legitimate scholarly fashion without the woo.

Sounds good. I have Harper's commentary which I frequently check while I'm reading. I also check out what the Christian apologists (I try to look for the best) say online for anything that counter what atheists say about things. I'm sure you won't be surprised that none have had anything satisfactory to say about the "virgin raids" of Numbers and Deuteronomy.

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03-06-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
No, it's really not a matter of semantics. Like, at all. It's a matter of saying something objectively and that being objectively wrong.

But okay.

Don't why I even try and help people with their tactics anymore.

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03-06-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 11:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  No, it's really not a matter of semantics. Like, at all. It's a matter of saying something objectively and that being objectively wrong.

But okay.

Don't why I even try and help people with their tactics anymore.

Help?

Tactics?

Dude... I'm not... I just don't...

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03-06-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
You're right.

I'm just a dumb theist. What do I know?

On an atheist forum, you should never be challenged when you make false claims.

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03-06-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 06:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ----
If you were in a real debate or addressing a different audience, you would have just struck a huge blow to your credibility and/or have been perceive negatively.

I point out things like this all the time to both theists and atheists... I'm one for having a debate based on honesty... and actual research.
---

The thing is...WalkingSnake didn't say he was in a debate.

He stated that these passages he'd just read well as an intro to the next (which he hadn't gotten into), were part of the things that made him want to stop putting off coming out to his mom.
***

Good on you WalkingSnake ... and it's cool you are reading through it instead of just following blindly the way people seem to want everyone to.

Taken as a whole, it's an interesting book- very arcane but philosophy can still be dredged out of it. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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03-06-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 12:44 PM)kim Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 06:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ----
If you were in a real debate or addressing a different audience, you would have just struck a huge blow to your credibility and/or have been perceive negatively.

I point out things like this all the time to both theists and atheists... I'm one for having a debate based on honesty... and actual research.
---

The thing is...WalkingSnake didn't say he was in a debate.

He stated that these passages he'd just read well as an intro to the next (which he hadn't gotten into), were part of the things that made him want to stop putting off coming out to his mom.
***

Good on you WalkingSnake ... and it's cool you are reading through it instead of just following blindly the way people seem to want everyone to.

Taken as a whole, it's an interesting book- very arcane but philosophy can still be dredged out of it. Shy

I'm with KC on this one. There are some Christians who come in here looking to debate atheists trying to poke holes in our arguments. If it is an educated Christian who is well-versed in the Bible, they will use that and say see you atheists don't know what you are talking about. This also can happen with Christian family and friends who are trying to poke holes in your atheism.

I am an atheist who enjoys reading the Bible as a literary document. I think it is important to put accurate info out there--especially since this is an open forum. If I interpret a Bible passage incorrectly or someone else has a different interpretation of the passage--I would like them to point it out to me.

There are also numerous ways to interpret the same passage. For instance, I mentioned Genesis 19 as God condoning using women as sex objects to save the angels. I am basing this on statements made in the Bible calling Lot a righteous man. However, some may say no God did not condone this behavior--which is why the angels protected the women by blinding the mob.
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03-06-2015, 01:13 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2015 01:37 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 12:44 PM)kim Wrote:  The thing is...WalkingSnake didn't say he was in a debate.

He stated that these passages he'd just read well as an intro to the next (which he hadn't gotten into), were part of the things that made him want to stop putting off coming out to his mom.

That doesn't matter. He made a false claim. I'm pointing that out. Believe it or not (I know you do because you know me), I'm trying to help.

Do you know the amount of vitriol and debunking I would get if I wrote something akin to him in casual passing; but just from the different point of view?

If I said:

I just told my atheist mom that I'm a Christian and a YEC. What did it for me was reading about how you can't have morals without God and that atheists just want to do bad things. Also, I read that evolution can't be true because if we came from monkeys how come there are still monkeys? I mean... duh.

I would get shredded for the sheer amount of falsehoods in those statements. Yeah, I could probably create truths from some of those sentiments, but objectively, what I said is completely false.

I wouldn't matter if I was saying this in a random topic or not... or if I was trying to debate or not...

I mean, for crying out loud, we have a parody law on the forum that was created just for me because of this very line of thinking.

Moreover, if this was a theist making false statements, and I pointed them out, I know (because it has happened several times on this forum) people aren't nearly as apt to defend the OP's casualness nature of the statements.

But really, this is all becoming silly... and not worth the energy to verbalize textually.

Just know it’s coming from a place of sincerity and of wanting to help. My words are often scrutinized and analyzed and a lot of times taken in ways they weren’t meant to be taken… but I’m different here... I get that, but that doesn't mean I can't strive to try and impart the constant awareness of everything I type that I've developed over the years on this forum to others.

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03-06-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
Yabut, WalkingSnake wasn't debating. He only referred to a passage he'd just read and one he was about to read to illustrate where he is in the lead up to coming out of the closet.

I agree that accuracy is foremost in debate but it didn't appear there was a debate. Until now. Wink

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