I finally told my mom
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03-06-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 01:25 PM)kim Wrote:  Yabut, WalkingSnake wasn't debating. He only referred to a passage he'd just read and one he was about to read to illustrate where he is in the lead up to coming out of the closet.

I agree that accuracy is foremost in debate but it didn't appear there was a debate. Until now. Wink

I agree, it wasn't a debate. I was more making a point of accuracy of Bible passages in general. For ex., if someone interprets a passage incorrectly, imo, it is good to point that out--not in a debate fashion--just in terms of accuracy (since it is an open forum and anyone could read it and walk away with incorrect info).
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03-06-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 01:25 PM)kim Wrote:  Yabut, WalkingSnake wasn't debating. He only referred to a passage he'd just read and one he was about to read to illustrate where he is in the lead up to coming out of the closet.

I agree that accuracy is foremost in debate but it didn't appear there was a debate. Until now. Wink

I just specifically addressed this exact thing in my previous post.

Never mind. Forget it.

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03-06-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(29-05-2015 05:05 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(29-05-2015 04:55 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  There's a chance that I've opened pandora's box though. My mom texted me today and asked me to give her a copy of my "deconversion" testimony so she could have a team of 5 elders pray over it. Huh Dodgy

Tell her it's personal and that you wanted to share it with her alone...for now, at least.
But...
Perhaps they could just write your name down on a piece of paper and pray over that.
Whatever helps them come to terms with your own deconversion.
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03-06-2015, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2015 05:45 PM by WalkingSnake.)
RE: I finally told my mom
(03-06-2015 01:13 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Just know it’s coming from a place of sincerity and of wanting to help.

Ah, so you're just being helpful.

Let's review shall we? Your first post in my thread here does not seem helpful, and clearly has a confrontational tone to it. While you say "if this were a debate" as if you're saying it's not, your tone would say that you clearly want it to be one. So if you want one, I'll give it to you.

Let's look at what you wrote:

(02-06-2015 01:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hate to be contrary and get off topic, but that's a horribly disingenuous statement. You are either lying about reading Judges 19-20 or you have severe reading comprehension problems.

How about neither. Here's part of my original post:

(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew.

So you're either calling me a liar or you're saying that I have reading-comprehension problems. You're wrong on both accounts, since my words in blue show I haven't read it yet (still haven't by the way, I'm on Chapter 10).

Your words in red are clearly confrontational. Clearly trying to bait me into a debate.

But here's the thing, the "reading comprehension" is on your part. And actually if you had read my post a little more clearly you might have been able to see a clearer opportunity to call me out on something:

(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  This is the book you get your morals from?

At the very worst on my part I was guilty of assumption before reading. I have not actually read it yet. I'm equivalent here to the Trekkies who hated the J. J. Abrams Star Trek movie months before it released, and then found out they were wrong upon actually seeing the film.

So this is where a more acceptable response from you would be, "Uh, hey, yeah, dude, you should probably read it first before jumping conclusions like a dumbass." Yeah! I'll take the "dumbass". Do it. I welcome the name calling where it's due (though I'm sure that might be a problem for the mods here, so no, scratch that, no name calling, even if I'm okay with you calling me a name).

But you know what, now I know what to expect from you. I hope to see you around the forums.

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20-06-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Yep. Told my mom.

A couple reasons why I decided to finally stop putting it off:

1. to stop putting it off!
2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew. This is the book you get your morals from?
3. I wanted to be out with my mom first, so I can finally be out with everyone else.

How'd it go?

Waaaaay better than I thought. No tears. She listened to me give my "deconversion". I listened to her. And I wanna be clear, she's a very progressive mom. She said she's against organized religion. But she's very spiritual. She believes in miracles. She knows, KNOWS there is a God through personal experience. So yes, she used the combination of argument from personal experience and argument from miracles. But this was not a debate. I basically laid it out there. I probably could have gone after those problematic explanations, but I didn't. She said she does not condemn me, but she hopes I'll turn around some day.

I kept trying to tell her my view on God: I don't know if God exists, but if he does, I hope he doesn't care if I believe he exists.

She didn't really see that now. But I hope I got through somewhere.

Sounds like to me you were reading the Bible, looking for reasons to turn away from the faith. There are many books and websites that go through great lengths to debunk all of the skeptic/critical crap out there...have you taken the time to look at those? Or did you, as I said, scan through the Bible with that Skeptic site on your tab, using it as a guide to help feed your skepticism and ultimately turn you away from Jesus Christ and the path to eternal life?

And let me put it to you this way, on judgment day, mommy won't be there to save you.
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20-06-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(29-05-2015 03:07 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Yep. Told my mom.

A couple reasons why I decided to finally stop putting it off:

1. to stop putting it off!
2. Just got done reading Joshua. Started reading Judges. I read the description from "Skeptics Annotated Bible", and apparently there's a story at the end of a concubine gangrape and mutilation that would make Freddy Kruger blush. I said, "Uh uh, I'm done." I mean I'm still going to read. But my mom is also helping to raise my nephew. This is the book you get your morals from?
3. I wanted to be out with my mom first, so I can finally be out with everyone else.

How'd it go?

Waaaaay better than I thought. No tears. She listened to me give my "deconversion". I listened to her. And I wanna be clear, she's a very progressive mom. She said she's against organized religion. But she's very spiritual. She believes in miracles. She knows, KNOWS there is a God through personal experience. So yes, she used the combination of argument from personal experience and argument from miracles. But this was not a debate. I basically laid it out there. I probably could have gone after those problematic explanations, but I didn't. She said she does not condemn me, but she hopes I'll turn around some day.

I kept trying to tell her my view on God: I don't know if God exists, but if he does, I hope he doesn't care if I believe he exists.

She didn't really see that now. But I hope I got through somewhere.

Sounds like to me you were reading the Bible, looking for reasons to turn away from the faith. There are many books and websites that go through great lengths to debunk all of the skeptic/critical crap out there...have you taken the time to look at those? Or did you, as I said, scan through the Bible with that Skeptic site on your tab, using it as a guide to help feed your skepticism and ultimately turn you away from Jesus Christ and the path to eternal life?

And let me put it to you this way, on judgment day, mommy won't be there to save you.

I can't speak for Walking Snake, but I can give you a little insight on my own deconversion. I was a very strong believer and I didn't question anything--because they don't like you to do that in many churches. Like many believers, I had never read the entire Bible--only the good parts they give you in church or in Bible study. Don't you think that is rather deceitful? When I finally did venture into some of the other areas of the Bible, I tried asking my pastor and did not receive any responses that made sense. So, I started reading MANY scholarly books--written by both Christians and Non-Christians. I wanted to give all of it a fair and balanced approach. I carefully weighed all of the information, thought long and hard on it and realized I could no longer be a believer. I didn't go searching to get out of my religion--I went searching for truth. Just because your mommy or daddy taught you something doesn't make it true. It is always important to question when things don't make sense. It is okay to do that. I love this quote by Galileo: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Maybe it's time for you to look a little further beyond the curtain...
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20-06-2015, 07:07 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(20-06-2015 07:55 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I can't speak for Walking Snake, but I can give you a little insight on my own deconversion. I was a very strong believer and I didn't question anything--because they don't like you to do that in many churches. Like many believers, I had never read the entire Bible--only the good parts they give you in church or in Bible study. Don't you think that is rather deceitful? When I finally did venture into some of the other areas of the Bible, I tried asking my pastor and did not receive any responses that made sense. So, I started reading MANY scholarly books--written by both Christians and Non-Christians. I wanted to give all of it a fair and balanced approach. I carefully weighed all of the information, thought long and hard on it and realized I could no longer be a believer. I didn't go searching to get out of my religion--I went searching for truth. Just because your mommy or daddy taught you something doesn't make it true. It is always important to question when things don't make sense. It is okay to do that. I love this quote by Galileo: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Maybe it's time for you to look a little further beyond the curtain...

Well, at least you took the fair and balanced approached. I am curious as to what some of your questions were...and are you an atheist? And if you are, how did you determine that atheism is the truth?
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20-06-2015, 07:46 PM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2015 08:29 PM by jennybee.)
RE: I finally told my mom
(20-06-2015 07:07 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(20-06-2015 07:55 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I can't speak for Walking Snake, but I can give you a little insight on my own deconversion. I was a very strong believer and I didn't question anything--because they don't like you to do that in many churches. Like many believers, I had never read the entire Bible--only the good parts they give you in church or in Bible study. Don't you think that is rather deceitful? When I finally did venture into some of the other areas of the Bible, I tried asking my pastor and did not receive any responses that made sense. So, I started reading MANY scholarly books--written by both Christians and Non-Christians. I wanted to give all of it a fair and balanced approach. I carefully weighed all of the information, thought long and hard on it and realized I could no longer be a believer. I didn't go searching to get out of my religion--I went searching for truth. Just because your mommy or daddy taught you something doesn't make it true. It is always important to question when things don't make sense. It is okay to do that. I love this quote by Galileo: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Maybe it's time for you to look a little further beyond the curtain...

Well, at least you took the fair and balanced approached. I am curious as to what some of your questions were...and are you an atheist? And if you are, how did you determine that atheism is the truth?

I am an atheist. I had many questions--but here are a few examples: If God is the definition of love, why does He hate and do such horrendous things to his creations in the Bible? How can these supernatural biblical events (such as dead saints rising from their graves and walking around) possibly be true? And if they were true, why are there no records of them occurring? Why is the Bible at odds with science? Why is there no evidence of Noah's flood, Moses' Exodus, etc. Why does the Bible say the Earth was made in 7 days and man was made from dust when we know that is not how things happened? With so many different religions out there (including religions that predate Christianity), how do I know Christianity is the right one to be following? Why are there biblical contradictions and doublets? Why are there prophecies that did not come true (including Jesus' imminent return)? Why are there parallel stories from other nearby cultures which predate the Bible (i.e. Enuma Elish-Genesis/Gilgamesh-Noah's flood/Sargon-Moses) if the Bible is an original work?

I determined atheism is true in the same way you determine other gods from other religions are false. Ask yourself how you can say a Hindu god is not real. BTW--you do know Hinduism predates Christianity and Judaism, right? How do you know that the Hindus didn't/don't have the *right* god(s)?

In my quest for answers, I read many scholarly books and peer-reviewed articles on the Bible. I watched many lectures and watched a variety of debates. I even took a few courses. It got to the point where I realized that I was trying to force Christianity and the Bible to make sense--when it just didn't.
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22-06-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I am an atheist. I had many questions--but here are a few examples: If God is the definition of love, why does He hate and do such horrendous things to his creations in the Bible?

So, why does a loving God judge and disciple his creation?? Is that the question? And on that note, I have a question for you...if God doesn't exist, where do your moral values come from? Where does your sense of what it means to be morally just and morally unjust...where do you get it??

In other words, God's actions in the old testament...you believe that God acted in ways that are unjust, in YOUR opinion...so the question is, how is your standard of right and wrong the correct standard?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  How can these supernatural biblical events (such as dead saints rising from their graves and walking around) possibly be true?

Because, God has the power to give life, take life, and resurrect the dead back to life. So these things can "possibly" be true, if it is "possible" for God's existence to be true.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  And if they were true, why are there no records of them occurring?

It is recorded, in Matthew. Why aren't there any other recordings? I have my own personal reason why, and it is quite lengthy but if you want to, we can discuss that too.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why is the Bible at odds with science?

In what way?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why is there no evidence of Noah's flood

What evidence should we expect?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  , Moses' Exodus, etc.

Do you think we currently have full knowledge of everything regarding Ancient Egypt?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why does the Bible say the Earth was made in 7 days

Not everyone interprets the Genesis creation account as 7 literal 24 hour days. These folks are called OEC (old earth creationists).

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  and man was made from dust when we know that is not how things happened?

We currently don't have a viable theory in science as to how life originated on earth.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  With so many different religions out there (including religions that predate Christianity), how do I know Christianity is the right one to be following?

You study the case for the Resurrection of Jesus. Books have been written on the subject, and debates have been held on the subject. We have warriors on the forefront, making a case and debating the case for the Resurrection. Some of those warriors are William Lane Craig, Mike Licona, and probably the most prominent, Gary Habermas (among others).

If the argument for the Resurrection is sound/valid, then Christianity is true, and if Christianity is true, all other religions are false.

Second, Judaism is the world's oldest religion...it starts from the book of Genesis and it records when the very first human was created...it doesn't get any older than that.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are there biblical contradictions and doublets?

Are they? Name a few.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are there prophecies that did not come true (including Jesus' imminent return)?

Like what? And what about Jesus' imminent return?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are there parallel stories from other nearby cultures which predate the Bible (i.e. Enuma Elish-Genesis/Gilgamesh-Noah's flood/Sargon-Moses) if the Bible is an original work?

When you say "predate" the Bible, those non-biblical accounts may predate when the Bible was written, but that doesn't mean that they predate when the events in the Bible occurred. That is a big difference. If Moses wrote the book of Genesis, he may have been writing about events that occurred thousands of years before he began writing the book.

And if the argument for the Resurrection of Jesus is sound/valid, then it is clear as to which account is true.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I determined atheism is true in the same way you determine other gods from other religions are false. Ask yourself how you can say a Hindu god is not real. BTW--you do know Hinduism predates Christianity and Judaism, right? How do you know that the Hindus didn't/don't have the *right* god(s)?

I think there are some philosophical problems with Hinduism...and I don't think Hinduism predates Judaism. Again, it goes right back to the Resurrection, if the Resurrection is true, then Hinduism is false.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  In my quest for answers, I read many scholarly books and peer-reviewed articles on the Bible. I watched many lectures and watched a variety of debates. I even took a few courses. It got to the point where I realized that I was trying to force Christianity and the Bible to make sense--when it just didn't.

We have a lot to talk about then...because if making sense is what matters, then I don't see how atheism makes any sense whatsoever. In fact, I have arguments against it. Are you ready to learn???? Big Grin
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22-06-2015, 02:50 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
That reads as good. I hope my mom takes it as well.
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