I finally told my mom
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22-06-2015, 03:00 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Sounds like to me you were reading the Bible, looking for reasons to turn away from the faith.

No. Truth be told I did not become an atheist because of the Bible. Saying I'm an atheist because of the Bible is like saying I don't like meat because I have a problem with hamburgers. I became an atheist before starting my very detailed reading of the Bible which I'm currently doing now (I'm finishing up II Samuel now).

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you misunderstood me. Reading the Bible motivated me to come out to my mom about my atheism. The Bible is NOT a good place to get morals. Of the things that even religious culture deems acceptable, are things that nonbelievers can come to the same conclusion about (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, or lie, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, I'd put an "etc." on the end of that, but there really isn't much more).

To put things in perspective for you, I'm not "leaving the faith." I'm testing it, and it fails... miserably. On all points. In fact the only thing you're left with is faith itself, without any evidence except a very flawed book some old dead guys wrote.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  There are many books and websites that go through great lengths to debunk all of the skeptic/critical crap out there...have you taken the time to look at those?

I have not located one good apologist that can give a good enough excuse for God commanding His people to raid villages, kill everyone (man, woman, and child) except for the young virgin girls. Keep the virgin girls for yourself. This is just one example. In fact, do me a favor: take that one example and you provide for me a good enough explanation for this God behavior. Show me that the God-sanctioned genocide of the Old Testament is acceptable. Then I might at least find some respect for those who believe in the Bible.

Because like said, I didn't become an atheist because of the Bible. In fact, by the time I fully identified as an atheist (or atheist agnostic to be fair and technical about it), I simply came to the conclusion that the God of the Bible might actually be a just and loving God that nonbelievers simply misunderstood, even though I find absolutely no reason to believe in Him. NOW however, I'm reading the Bible and I'm on 2nd Samuel, and from my perspective if that God is real, then He's the most brutal and cruel person ever. Ever. That includes Hitler and any other historical villain you can think of.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Or did you, as I said, scan through the Bible with that Skeptic site on your tab, using it as a guide to help feed your skepticism

No, like I said, if I actually had just "scanned through the Bible" as you think, I would have been okay with the Bible God, even if I don't believe in Him.

And the "Skeptic Annotated Bible" that you're referencing? My opinion is that it's actually not critical enough. And sometimes, I don't agree with some of the criticisms he provides. Not to say I don't like it, I do. But I do look to other references as well, that includes commentaries that Christians find acceptable.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  and ultimately turn you away from Jesus Christ and the path to eternal life?

(I know this is a can of worms I'm popping open right now but...) How do you know that Jesus Christ is the path to eternal life?

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  And let me put it to you this way, on judgment day, mommy won't be there to save you.

I don't need mommy to save me. I was able to get my hands on a reprogrammed Terminator.

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22-06-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(22-06-2015 02:08 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I am an atheist. I had many questions--but here are a few examples: If God is the definition of love, why does He hate and do such horrendous things to his creations in the Bible?

So, why does a loving God judge and disciple his creation?? Is that the question? And on that note, I have a question for you...if God doesn't exist, where do your moral values come from? Where does your sense of what it means to be morally just and morally unjust...where do you get it??

In other words, God's actions in the old testament...you believe that God acted in ways that are unjust, in YOUR opinion...so the question is, how is your standard of right and wrong the correct standard?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  How can these supernatural biblical events (such as dead saints rising from their graves and walking around) possibly be true?

Because, God has the power to give life, take life, and resurrect the dead back to life. So these things can "possibly" be true, if it is "possible" for God's existence to be true.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  And if they were true, why are there no records of them occurring?

It is recorded, in Matthew. Why aren't there any other recordings? I have my own personal reason why, and it is quite lengthy but if you want to, we can discuss that too.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why is the Bible at odds with science?

In what way?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why is there no evidence of Noah's flood

What evidence should we expect?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  , Moses' Exodus, etc.

Do you think we currently have full knowledge of everything regarding Ancient Egypt?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why does the Bible say the Earth was made in 7 days

Not everyone interprets the Genesis creation account as 7 literal 24 hour days. These folks are called OEC (old earth creationists).

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  and man was made from dust when we know that is not how things happened?

We currently don't have a viable theory in science as to how life originated on earth.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  With so many different religions out there (including religions that predate Christianity), how do I know Christianity is the right one to be following?

You study the case for the Resurrection of Jesus. Books have been written on the subject, and debates have been held on the subject. We have warriors on the forefront, making a case and debating the case for the Resurrection. Some of those warriors are William Lane Craig, Mike Licona, and probably the most prominent, Gary Habermas (among others).

If the argument for the Resurrection is sound/valid, then Christianity is true, and if Christianity is true, all other religions are false.

Second, Judaism is the world's oldest religion...it starts from the book of Genesis and it records when the very first human was created...it doesn't get any older than that.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are there biblical contradictions and doublets?

Are they? Name a few.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are there prophecies that did not come true (including Jesus' imminent return)?

Like what? And what about Jesus' imminent return?

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are there parallel stories from other nearby cultures which predate the Bible (i.e. Enuma Elish-Genesis/Gilgamesh-Noah's flood/Sargon-Moses) if the Bible is an original work?

When you say "predate" the Bible, those non-biblical accounts may predate when the Bible was written, but that doesn't mean that they predate when the events in the Bible occurred. That is a big difference. If Moses wrote the book of Genesis, he may have been writing about events that occurred thousands of years before he began writing the book.

And if the argument for the Resurrection of Jesus is sound/valid, then it is clear as to which account is true.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I determined atheism is true in the same way you determine other gods from other religions are false. Ask yourself how you can say a Hindu god is not real. BTW--you do know Hinduism predates Christianity and Judaism, right? How do you know that the Hindus didn't/don't have the *right* god(s)?

I think there are some philosophical problems with Hinduism...and I don't think Hinduism predates Judaism. Again, it goes right back to the Resurrection, if the Resurrection is true, then Hinduism is false.

(20-06-2015 07:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  In my quest for answers, I read many scholarly books and peer-reviewed articles on the Bible. I watched many lectures and watched a variety of debates. I even took a few courses. It got to the point where I realized that I was trying to force Christianity and the Bible to make sense--when it just didn't.

We have a lot to talk about then...because if making sense is what matters, then I don't see how atheism makes any sense whatsoever. In fact, I have arguments against it. Are you ready to learn???? Big Grin

Where do moral values come from? Evolution and societal constructs.

Why do I believe God acted unjustly in the O.T.? My thought process is based on my societal constructs and a modern lens. If I lived during biblical times, when earthquakes were thought to be a result of sin, I probably would have thought God was being just for giving us an earthquake--if I saw people running around committing sins. Why? Because in biblical times, they would cast lots to determine what God wanted. If the lot landed on God wants us to do X and people did Y instead--and then a few days later, there was an earthquake--the thinking was that God was in the right to punish disobedience. We now know what causes earthquakes and we know that they are not the result of sin.

Is my view the correct standard? As human beings we are social creatures and we experience pain both emotionally and physically. If a supernatural being created us to have these abilities and then purposefully inflicts pain on us as a way to get us to worship Him--then yes, I would say my description of God being horrendous to his creations in the O.T. is accurate.

In terms of dead saints rising from their graves and walking about the city: There is no external evidence that this ever occurred. Not one shred other than the Bible. Don’t you think someone would have mentioned this anomaly somewhere in one of the various written sources of the time? In addition, other biblical supernatural events such as God having storehouses of snow in the heavens have been discounted by science. What makes you think the dead saints rising and walking into the city account is not just another made up story in the Bible? Magic is not a good enough answer.

In what way is the Bible at odds with science? You can’t be serious. Earth created in 7 days. Man made from dust. Woman made from rib. A talking snake. God’s magical storehouses of snow and hail in the heavens. An angel flying about with a hot coal. Absolutely no evidence of Noah’s flood. Absolutely no evidence of Exodus. I could go on and on and on but am at work.

What evidence should we expect from Noah’s Flood? see Bill Nye/ken Ham debate on you tube.

Do I think we have full knowledge of everything archaeological from biblical times? No. However, archaeologists have spent years looking for a shred of anything and have come up empty handed for a plethora of biblical events.

I understand OEC’s do not interpret Genesis as 7 literal days--but that is not the proper way to be interpreting the text. Any biblical scholar will tell you that God meant 7 literal days. And even if God did mean eons and not days--the passage still doesn’t work. Sun would have to be created years after plants--which doesn’t work. Stars would have to be created years after Earth, which we know is not how things happened. This is just to name a few issues with the OEC Genesis account--there are more.

We don’t have a viable theory as to how life originated on earth? You are right--evolution is all made up and it all started with a magical being's breath of life...

I have studied the resurrection of Jesus as well as other claims from other religions. You might want to try reading some books by biblical scholars who don’t sway one direction or the other. How is what you are doing with Craig/Licona etc. any different than what you accused Walking Snake of re: Skeptic’s Annotated Bible and skewed thinking?

Judaism is not the world’s oldest religion. You need to do some serious anthropological reading.

I was a Christian, I read the Bible several times over, studied many scholarly books, took courses, etc. You, however, are relying solely on the Bible and nothing else. I don’t think I am the one who needs to expand my horizons.

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22-06-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(22-06-2015 03:00 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Sounds like to me you were reading the Bible, looking for reasons to turn away from the faith.

No. Truth be told I did not become an atheist because of the Bible. Saying I'm an atheist because of the Bible is like saying I don't like meat because I have a problem with hamburgers. I became an atheist before starting my very detailed reading of the Bible which I'm currently doing now (I'm finishing up II Samuel now).

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you misunderstood me. Reading the Bible motivated me to come out to my mom about my atheism. The Bible is NOT a good place to get morals. Of the things that even religious culture deems acceptable, are things that nonbelievers can come to the same conclusion about (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, or lie, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, I'd put an "etc." on the end of that, but there really isn't much more).

To put things in perspective for you, I'm not "leaving the faith." I'm testing it, and it fails... miserably. On all points. In fact the only thing you're left with is faith itself, without any evidence except a very flawed book some old dead guys wrote.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  There are many books and websites that go through great lengths to debunk all of the skeptic/critical crap out there...have you taken the time to look at those?

I have not located one good apologist that can give a good enough excuse for God commanding His people to raid villages, kill everyone (man, woman, and child) except for the young virgin girls. Keep the virgin girls for yourself. This is just one example. In fact, do me a favor: take that one example and you provide for me a good enough explanation for this God behavior. Show me that the God-sanctioned genocide of the Old Testament is acceptable. Then I might at least find some respect for those who believe in the Bible.

Because like said, I didn't become an atheist because of the Bible. In fact, by the time I fully identified as an atheist (or atheist agnostic to be fair and technical about it), I simply came to the conclusion that the God of the Bible might actually be a just and loving God that nonbelievers simply misunderstood, even though I find absolutely no reason to believe in Him. NOW however, I'm reading the Bible and I'm on 2nd Samuel, and from my perspective if that God is real, then He's the most brutal and cruel person ever. Ever. That includes Hitler and any other historical villain you can think of.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Or did you, as I said, scan through the Bible with that Skeptic site on your tab, using it as a guide to help feed your skepticism

No, like I said, if I actually had just "scanned through the Bible" as you think, I would have been okay with the Bible God, even if I don't believe in Him.

And the "Skeptic Annotated Bible" that you're referencing? My opinion is that it's actually not critical enough. And sometimes, I don't agree with some of the criticisms he provides. Not to say I don't like it, I do. But I do look to other references as well, that includes commentaries that Christians find acceptable.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  and ultimately turn you away from Jesus Christ and the path to eternal life?

(I know this is a can of worms I'm popping open right now but...) How do you know that Jesus Christ is the path to eternal life?

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  And let me put it to you this way, on judgment day, mommy won't be there to save you.

I don't need mommy to save me. I was able to get my hands on a reprogrammed Terminator.

Exactly.

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27-06-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: I finally told my mom
(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Where do moral values come from? Evolution and societal constructs.

So your moral values comes from a mindless and blind process, and societal constructs that are relative to location, race, age, culture, sex, etc.

Gotcha.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why do I believe God acted unjustly in the O.T.? My thought process is based on my societal constructs and a modern lens. If I lived during biblical times, when earthquakes were thought to be a result of sin, I probably would have thought God was being just for giving us an earthquake--if I saw people running around committing sins. Why? Because in biblical times, they would cast lots to determine what God wanted. If the lot landed on God wants us to do X and people did Y instead--and then a few days later, there was an earthquake--the thinking was that God was in the right to punish disobedience. We now know what causes earthquakes and we know that they are not the result of sin.

"We now know the cause of earthquakes". Well, we still don't know the cause of life, consciousness, language, the universe, and intelligence. While you wait on science to tell you where that stuff came from, I will be waiting on the return of Jesus...we will see which one comes first.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Is my view the correct standard? As human beings we are social creatures and we experience pain both emotionally and physically.

Lions are social creatures too, and also experience pain emotionally and physically. Point?

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  If a supernatural being created us to have these abilities and then purposefully inflicts pain on us as a way to get us to worship Him--then yes, I would say my description of God being horrendous to his creations in the O.T. is accurate.

And if you purposely reject the one True God by worshiping false gods, and commits sin in the process thus offending God's holiness, then you deserve whatever you get from God.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  In terms of dead saints rising from their graves and walking about the city: There is no external evidence that this ever occurred. Not one shred other than the Bible.

Argument from silence. Also, assuming that the Bible needs external sources to corroborate it. Matthews account could be true regardless as to whether there is ANY outside sources to corroborate it.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Don’t you think someone would have mentioned this anomaly somewhere in one of the various written sources of the time?

No. This was long before the day of video recordings, news outlets, and social media. So if those saints did come out of their graves, it is highly unlikely that they would have been recognized by the people of that day. If King David came out of his grave, even in his original human form, it isn't as if the average Joe on the street would have said "Do my eyes deceive me, is this not King David??"

No, he wouldn't have known who this guy was, because he NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE. Second, the narrative doesn't even state how many saints were resurrected...how many were there? 3? 5? 10?

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  In addition, other biblical supernatural events such as God having storehouses of snow in the heavens have been discounted by science.

Um, Jenny...heaven is far beyond the scopes of man, ok Laugh out load

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  What makes you think the dead saints rising and walking into the city account is not just another made up story in the Bible? Magic is not a good enough answer.

Because as a Biblical believing Christian, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that was "made up". Sure, there are some metaphorical and symbolic passages, but even these passages have some shred of truth to them.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  In what way is the Bible at odds with science? You can’t be serious. Earth created in 7 days.

There are some old earth creationists out there, Jenny.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Man made from dust. Woman made from rib.

Which can't be any worse than the naturalistic claims of abiogenesis.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  A talking snake.

Wait a minute, how is the idea of a talking snake any more absurd than inanimate matter suddenly coming to life, and beginning to talk and think?? You have the nerve to sit there and mock Christianity, but have you thought about your own world views?'

Second, if God exists and if he wants a snake to talk, then the snake will talk.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  God’s magical storehouses of snow and hail in the heavens.

If God exists, and he wants storehouses of snow and hail in heavens, then that is what he gets.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  An angel flying about with a hot coal.

Reptiles turning into birds.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Absolutely no evidence of Noah’s flood.

I had a flood in my basement one time. 5,000 years later, what evidence would there be that there was a flood in my basement? Laugh out load

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Absolutely no evidence of Exodus.

What kind of evidence to you need of people that once lived in one location, moved to another location?

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  What evidence should we expect from Noah’s Flood? see Bill Nye/ken Ham debate on you tube.

Ok

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Do I think we have full knowledge of everything archaeological from biblical times? No. However, archaeologists have spent years looking for a shred of anything and have come up empty handed for a plethora of biblical events.

There have also been tons of Biblical stuff that have been confirmed.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I understand OEC’s do not interpret Genesis as 7 literal days--but that is not the proper way to be interpreting the text. Any biblical scholar will tell you that God meant 7 literal days.

Some OEC's are Biblical scholars.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  And even if God did mean eons and not days--the passage still doesn’t work.
Sun would have to be created years after plants--which doesn’t work. Stars would have to be created years after Earth, which we know is not how things happened. This is just to name a few issues with the OEC Genesis account--there are more.

As if God is bound and subjected to the very laws of nature that he created Laugh out load

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  We don’t have a viable theory as to how life originated on earth? You are right--evolution is all made up and it all started with a magical being's breath of life...

When you dissect any mammal or reptile, you will find all these different parts that have been configured in specific ways for the body to function properly...now, I can either believe that a magical being with intelligence gave me lungs that I use to breath in the air that is conveniently around me, or eyes to see, ears to hear, feet to walk, fingers to grab/hold objects, etc...I can believe that a magical being with intelligence gave me these things..

or

I can believe that a mindless and blind process, a process that didn't have a CLUE what it was doing, gave me a digestive system, circulatory system, reproductive system, immune system, nervous system, etc.

I am sorry, but my common sense won't allow me to believe that a mindless and blind process did all of this. Even if I wasn't a Christian, I wouldn't believe that.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Judaism is not the world’s oldest religion.

Well, I don't know of any other religion that takes you all the way back to when the universe was first created. All other religions begins and ends with the universe here, but Judaism accurately confirmed what science has just figured out within the past 100 years, that the universe began to exist at some point in the finite past.

(22-06-2015 03:03 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I was a Christian, I read the Bible several times over, studied many scholarly books, took courses, etc. You, however, are relying solely on the Bible and nothing else. I don’t think I am the one who needs to expand my horizons.

Laugh out load
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27-06-2015, 11:42 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2015 11:47 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: I finally told my mom
I'll be in the minority here: although it was not a debate, KC is right about the insistence on accuracy. If you're going to commit it to posting, ensure it's accurate, or make clear your incomplete state of knowledge.

(20-06-2015 07:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  And let me put it to you this way, on judgment day, mommy won't be there to save you.

Nothing like the ole Appeal to Fear to demonstrate one's loving, and just, deity.

Me, I'm gonna have Joe Pesci there looking out for me.

Also, it's pretty funny watching Jen whack that mook around.
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27-06-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
«Well, I don't know of any other religion that takes you all the way back to when the universe was first created. All other religions begins and ends with the universe here, but Judaism accurately confirmed what science has just figured out within the past 100 years, that the universe began to exist at some point in the finite past.»

Then you know nothing about any other religion. All religion or even mythological structure that are too primitive to qualify of religion have a creation myth; a beginning of the universe and its creation by a deity or several gods. In fact, most religion are even better than the Abrahamic one. They actually tell how the creator came to be himself. How the very first god was born and how he created the universe after. Of all your arguments, this must be the most false, ignorant and insulting to human history and imagination.
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28-06-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(27-06-2015 06:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Then you know nothing about any other religion. All religion or even mythological structure that are too primitive to qualify of religion have a creation myth; a beginning of the universe and its creation by a deity or several gods. In fact, most religion are even better than the Abrahamic one. They actually tell how the creator came to be himself. How the very first god was born and how he created the universe after. Of all your arguments, this must be the most false, ignorant and insulting to human history and imagination.

Nonsense. I am asking for specifics regarding which religion states that space, time, matter, and energy did NOT exist until the deity(s) of the religion created it? Second, the concept of a god "coming to be" or was "born" is nonsensical.

Whatever created the universe had to be a NECESSARY being, not a CONTINGENT being...so while you thought you had your little response to my post all figured out, you've actually created more of a problem for yourself.
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28-06-2015, 06:40 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(28-06-2015 05:32 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(27-06-2015 06:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Then you know nothing about any other religion. All religion or even mythological structure that are too primitive to qualify of religion have a creation myth; a beginning of the universe and its creation by a deity or several gods. In fact, most religion are even better than the Abrahamic one. They actually tell how the creator came to be himself. How the very first god was born and how he created the universe after. Of all your arguments, this must be the most false, ignorant and insulting to human history and imagination.

Nonsense. I am asking for specifics regarding which religion states that space, time, matter, and energy did NOT exist until the deity(s) of the religion created it? Second, the concept of a god "coming to be" or was "born" is nonsensical.

Whatever created the universe had to be a NECESSARY being, not a CONTINGENT being...so while you thought you had your little response to my post all figured out, you've actually created more of a problem for yourself.

Here is a short list of religions/faith that state specifically that space, time, matter and energy did NOT existed until the action of one or several deities: Hinduism, Jediism, Wiccan, Greek mythology, Egyptian Mythology, Shintoism, Elementalism, Solar Cult of Mesoamerica. I would like to mention that Buddhism state that our observable universe is actually an illusion much like several nihilistic sects and that the real universe is eternal.

The concept of an eternal intelligence that creates time is nonsensical. The moment the intelligence would have appeared time would have started to flow for it. It's a necessary component of consciousness: the ability to be aware of itself and world that surround it. Would that mean that you’re God was unconscious and that he created the universe in a zombie-like state?
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28-06-2015, 07:32 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
(28-06-2015 06:40 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(28-06-2015 05:32 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Nonsense. I am asking for specifics regarding which religion states that space, time, matter, and energy did NOT exist until the deity(s) of the religion created it? Second, the concept of a god "coming to be" or was "born" is nonsensical.

Whatever created the universe had to be a NECESSARY being, not a CONTINGENT being...so while you thought you had your little response to my post all figured out, you've actually created more of a problem for yourself.

Here is a short list of religions/faith that state specifically that space, time, matter and energy did NOT existed until the action of one or several deities: Hinduism, Jediism, Wiccan, Greek mythology, Egyptian Mythology, Shintoism, Elementalism, Solar Cult of Mesoamerica. I would like to mention that Buddhism state that our observable universe is actually an illusion much like several nihilistic sects and that the real universe is eternal.

The concept of an eternal intelligence that creates time is nonsensical. The moment the intelligence would have appeared time would have started to flow for it. It's a necessary component of consciousness: the ability to be aware of itself and world that surround it. Would that mean that you’re God was unconscious and that he created the universe in a zombie-like state?

Yabut those are all wrong. See there's this book......

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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28-06-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: I finally told my mom
Call of the Wild - If you're truly a serious Christian who wants to know what evolution actually says, not what you apparently think it says, and why we know it actually happened, I suggest you read the book The Language of God by Dr. Francis S. Collins, former head of the Human Genome Project and current Science Adviser to the President of the United States. He is an evangelical Christian and a top genetic scientist, and he has provided excellent "layman's terms" proof for any Christian honest enough to look at it.

There is no question, based entirely on nothing more than a genetic analysis of humans and chimpanzees, that we evolved from a common ancestor to the chimpanzees and ourselves. None. All the other lines of evidence that stack up alongside that line of questioning are just "bonuses", so to speak.

Or, rather, I should say the genetic evidence lines up perfectly alongside all the other lines of evidence, since we knew about those other proofs of evolution long before we could sequence DNA. If evolution were false, the DNA evidence would have blown our ideas out of the water; instead, the DNA analysis confirmed in every respect the previous proofs. That's why evolution gets the exalted title of Theory, the highest respect science can offer to an idea, when the models of how it operates all line up smoothly. Do we know everything there is to know about evolution? Of course not! There's always something more to discover. But any serious debate over whether or not life evolved on this planet is long over. All we are quibbling about now are details. How hard is this to grasp?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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